While it could be a good idea in some contexts, it just goes to show how ingrained these prejudices are. If only “or how about we treat everyone equally” was an option…
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But when the content of men’s and women’s speech are studied, it turns out men spend at least as much time on “gossip” and extracurricular interests. Why is talking about the game last night or why Mike blew it on that Jones account (too hung over, again) considered appropriate co-worker bonding, but talking about fashion or why Susie did or didn’t get the promotion considered women’s chatter?
And considering how many men enjoy music, and even engage in it themselves, the idea that women’s voices are like music somehow means they’re not understandable is a weird conclusion for that researcher to make. If anything, wouldn’t it make women even more worth listening to?
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This. Exactly. Multiply it by millions of women. This is what happens.
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Indeed, like that. I’m also tired, but need to work for another 20 years. Work was first fun, it should be mostly fun and rewarding, level of neediness depending. And I still think the technical field that applied to me and works for me should be fun. But it drains. But I can’t think different, or behave different, or be a language or communication (for example!) person at demand.
To be honest, the thread above rings a bell, but don’t want to know. Live is complicated enough.
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Wasn’it a great idea to make people invisible/not recognisable play for auditions?
I remember the moment I read about it the first time. Nearly shouting out loud ‘yeah!!’.
But… Yes…
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So many women leave fields, technical and other, simply because the constant fight is so fucking draining.
I have no answers but talking about it has to be a first step.
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Shit, isn’t?
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I think women’s gossip is a direct threat to patriarchal control in a way that men’s is not. The last thing an abuser wants is for his victims to be forewarned by the whisper network; the last thing a controlling man wants is for opinion of him to be outside his control – thus anytime women talk without a man present is treated as suspect.
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These are great ground rules and solve for the general case of any bias or domination of the conversation.
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I think that assumes that there would be no problems before the decision to do this even begins and that women will feel welcome to speak in the first place.
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I’m not quite sure I understand your concerns here.
I’m not sure what you mean by “that assumes that there would be no problems before the decision to do this even begins”. Don’t these rules assume the existence of a problem, or at least the possibility of a problem that they’re there to guard against? And of course no set of rules can retroactively solve a problem, so I’m just not getting your meaning here.
Second- do we need to add another point- everyone is welcome to speak, and everyone is encouraged to speak, with people who have not spoken yet explicitly encouraged to do so? That might work on making the discussion more welcoming.
The rules as stated are pretty much the rules we already have. But they do nothing to address the underlying issues of WHY this conversational imbalance happened in the first place.
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And I’m sorry @ChickieD. Never meant to take your subject away. But I can’t help you.
I’m a 0 at this subject. For example, to my DH, before I went to .fr. “I expect the hacked and now printed maps from 1823 will come in the mail Friday. I will take the big ruler and the sharp knife with me so I can cut away the white space. If you take the maps on Saturday, we will have a great present for Bernard and Geneviève on Sunday.”
Today, a message from DH: “Did you expect something delivered? There was a note left. Should I pick it from the neighbours?” “What is it? “
So, sorry, I’m not capable to make my message heard. And I can’t help. But if I find out how, you are the first one knowing.
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Sweden. The Bridge. Unless there’s another scandi crime thing for me to watch, in which case yay!
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/sigh
Its like they do it on purpose!!
This may cheer you up, been making the rounds on FB again, kinda cute, kinda funny, kinda sad, but oh so true.
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Sure, but it is just about a single person dominating a conversation and doesn’t take gendered dynamics into consideration. If women don’t feel welcome to speak in the first place, they won’t volunteer to speak up in this setting that @codinghorror describes. It could be a part of the solution, for sure. But if there is some preexisting level of aggression towards women contributing to the conversation and that is not explicitly addressed from the get go, then women are not going to feel welcome to speak. Does that clarify what I mean? It’s not just a problem of one individual who is hogging all the conversation, it’s also about women not feeling welcome to contribute in the same way as their male colleagues.
That could be helpful, yes. But what about also including that everyone discuss and respond to issues respectfully?
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I think that’s one of the proto-issues which, left unresolved, makes any kind of solution impossible- What exactly is the goal- Equality or fairness? Because fairness is subjective, equality is objectively measurable, and people frequently talk about one when they mean the other.
Men and women are different enough that there are places we need to really sit down and figure out what the ultimate goal actually is, before we can figure out how to implement it. Is it possible for a system to be both fair and equitable? If not, which of those do we want to pursue, and how will the result be measured?
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I think the ultimate goal is not to have people make assumptions about women (and frankly, men, too) in the work place that are based on stereotypes of difference that may or may not apply to all women and men. And for women to not be paid less than men for the same work. And for all of us to have a more sensible work-life balance, and for women to not be punished because too many of us carry more of the burden of family care. And for men to respect and listen when women talk.
I don’t think there is a big mystery here about what many feminists are striving for. There are plenty of clear consistent discussions of what equality in the workplace could look like and how that’s not happening.
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This is also a big deal in my field. Now that I get to be bossish lady, I often say things like:
“Male colleague, explain to me how what you just said differs from what female colleague said ten minutes ago?”
“Male colleague, it sounds like you spent this past week working on something female colleague already tried. How does your solution differ from the one she presented?”
I like this approach because it calls to mind not just that this person was sexist in ignoring the work and speech of a female colleague, but that their sexism actually cost them (time, energy) and wasted the resources (time, energy, maybe money) of the team.
I don’t really know what the correlate action is for the underlings, though. When I was a grad student, my boss was very supportive of women, so if I spoke up and said ‘I just said that same thing, dude’ to a guy, it was OK. Not everyone has that supportive environment.
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Well, like I said, it’s a very general solution that works on all instances of this problem, including those which don’t have a gender dynamic. There’s never going to be an all-encompassing solution to a complex problem of human behaviour like this, but there are lots of good things we can do.
Depends on the context, really. Some conversations should be polite and professional (and people shouldn’t need to be told this but that’s just wishful thinking on my part.), some need to be more relaxed, and some obnoxious behaviour always deserves a less than respectful response.
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