How can women disrupt male speech domination?

I’m generally just listening here because I don’t think I have a lot to contribute here, I’m trying to learn.

That said; I’ve worked for traditional engineering companies, definitely male-dominated, but my first and second line management have had a decent proportion of women (not 50:50, but higher than the level amongst employees), so at least for the first couple of levels (definitely less so higher up), I’ve seen talented women promoted.

I haven’t seen too many examples of sexism (quite probably because of the very small amount of women that I’ve worked with?), but my last boss (generally disliked by everyone) did have a really nasty (subconscious?) habit of always asking them women in our team (not the most junior people) to arrange restaurants if we were ever going out for a team lunch (or any other secretarial/admin type tasks).

As far as conversations being dominated, I’d say that the women that do make their voices heard have been called/considered feisty or a bit aggressive, when they haven’t behaved any different from male peers.

(on a personal level, I consider a meeting successful if I can do it by phone and don’t have to speak to anyone).

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Obligatory:

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Aaand that’s a bit sexist, right? Not Mad Men level, but if you were called aggressive just because, I dunno, the color of your hair? (Can’t think of a good analogy) it would be demeaning, right?

Calling Jim feisty because Jim is feisty is fine. Calling him feisty cause he is Irish is degrading.

Back to listening.

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It is, yes. That’s what I was getting at.

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Also: http://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor

I suggest wading through the whole thing if folks haven’t seen it before.

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If the speech bubble font was Fraktur, This would be my father-in-law.

[edit]
Any ideas how to get <script src="//use.edgefonts.net/unifrakturmaguntia:n4:all.js"></script>' to display?

I can’t help myself. From your link:

I’m married to a pretty egalitarian man but even so I sometimes find myself saying, “Sweetheart, I cannot rehash this story about work again. Please talk to a friend about this. I cannot listen any more.”

Which is exactly why I post here and have a shrink :smiley:

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Well, that’s easy enough!

I’m sure there are lots and lots of companies that have more number of technical female employees than technical male employees. And it should be easy to keep quitting jobs over and over again until those companies are found. There couldn’t be any downsides, I sure. Most companies look favorably on people who job hop a lot. Particularly women. And if they don’t – the women can just quit and start looking again!

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A friend of mine sued two previous employers for sexual harassment and sexual discrimination in the workplace.
Successfully too, as in she was in the right, she had been harassed by her boss (at two separate workplaces) and suffered discrimination based on her gender, and the unions and ministry found in her favour and she was granted compensation and two old dudes were given “early retirement”.

Wanna guess who then had a 4 year period of unemployment? Despite being amazing in her field, despite being highly qualified, despite BEING IN THE RIGHT in both cases? Couldn’t get an interview to save her life. Literally had to change her entire field because she had been fucking black-balled. Uppity women, causing problems, better not to hire them at all.

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But yeah, just move jobs. That will fix everything.

This is so super-frustrating. I’m sorry for your friend, that she had to deal with that BS.

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… are you my brother? Cuz that totally sounds like my sister-in-law’s Dad.

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I wish you would stop characterizing the discussion as “quitting jobs to avoid toxic co-workers” when it is very clearly about “quitting jobs to avoid toxic bosses” which is completely different in that is has no downsides whatsoever.

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Like my tweet on International Women’s Day said:

#OnedayIwill work @google and have as many female coworkers as men #womenintech #InternationalWomenDay

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I empathize with the statement that

It’s awfully easy to tell someone else they should just quit and get a new job

For example this
https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/474q2s/having_trouble_with_a_contract_and_i_dont_know/

Led to this
https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/47qor0/update_i_am_now_jobless/

TL;DR female sysadmin asks about egregious sexism and highly inappropriate advances at her workplace, gets told “you should contact HR”, does, and… promptly gets fired.

I should add that the sysadmin community is way, way more off color than the programming community in my experience. Not sure why, but it truly is. Of course a bunch of people (most likely dudes, given the demographics of sysadmins in particular) then told her

You should file a lawsuit!

Because that wouldn’t be a huge kick in the face to go through on top of everything else.

When one says “walk away and change jobs”, depending on the severity of the situation that’s sometimes your only option. Because what else are you going to do? Contact HR and have this bullshit happen? There are enlightened employers out there, and if you are lucky enough to have valuable skills and this isn’t the only job you can ever possibly get, why not take advantage of that?

If the deck is stacked against you at a company from the highest levels, walking away is the smart move, unless you are sure “most” other companies would be the same way.

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It’s totally OT, but I misread that and was chagrined that Hope was going to do X-men.

I know that boingboing feeds into my mum’s Facebook feed, so it’s a slim possibility, but I suspect that old, generally bigoted, male, and German doesn’t narrow it down a great deal…

Also, pretty sure neither of my sisters would call themselves @Missy_Pants, and the dog doesn’t seem familiar.

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Women are better than men. Some men can’t deal with that.
 
 

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I don’t have any good suggestions other than one, perhaps. And I didn’t read past the first few posts so forgive me if I missed later added info.

I would approach this not from a mansplaning angle, or a misogynist angle and more from an asshole angle.

At least in this specific example: " I’m also dealing right now with a mixed gendered group where the male boss is overriding every suggestion with his own judgement. "

While there are certainly people who dismiss women out of hand, there are also a lot of people who dismiss basically everyone, which is what it sounds like here. (Though it is possible you have the double whammy of he doesn’t listen to other people, especially women.)

Now being an asshole and a misogynist isn’t mutually exclusive, but I think if you approach it from a generic communication angle instead of male vs female, you will make him less defensive and less likely to dismiss you as something like a feminist with a chip on your shoulder (twisting it into YOU having a problem, not HIM being the problem.)

As for how to deal with it - ugh - there is not magic bullet. Because each asshole is an asshole for different reason and react in different ways to get them to behave differently. I am sure this is in those management books I never fully read. Some of them do react to humor and diffusing tactics like that. Some react well to where you stroke their ego a bit, and then suggest another option. Some are at least rational creatures, and if you can make your case out with charts and numbers, they can’t refute what you say. Still there are others who simple are god like. They do no wrong. Your problems are just because you aren’t looking at the world like he does, no one else really gets it, and so anything they suggest isn’t really important.

The one other suggest I can give is one that I learned works in general (at least for me), don’t be apologetic about your opinion. Be polite, but don’t preface what you about to say with dismissals. Something like “Hey, this may be a dumb idea”, “or maybe this is just me but” - don’t discredit yourself out of the gate. It actually primes the listener to think that the idea isn’t a good one. (Note, I still did this at the beginning of this post with out meaning to.)

I watched several videos on assertive body language and speech when I was job hunting and I think it helped me speak better in public in general.

I wish you luck. I don’t understand how assholes get put in charge so often. You may also look to HR for relief if it gets really bad.

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No, the comment refers to this channeling that I noticed in the thread. Channeling as in, posters kept coming at me as if I was saying “I don’t see it therefore it doesn’t exist.” I never said that, nor do I believe it. But the implication and mischaracterization was remarkable, and I remarked. If you are offended, I am sorry. But when I am getting mischaracterized and decontextualized repeatedly, I will call it out. It’s not a fair conversational style, but it’s in vogue here on the bbs. Take one little piece of what someone writes and then twist it into a blanket statement, optionally call them a name, then stick it all back in their eye. I don’t take kindly to that, and especially if you knew me, you’d know I’m not a mean person. Nor a male chauvinist.

Anyways…

Always. And if I worked with you, I’d be right there with you tearing down the walls.

Again, the tendency here on the bbs is to attack the people who show up for the discussion. I am not your enemy and most of the men who show up for these discussions aren’t either. Occasionally a gohper-pig pops his head in here and deserves a whack. But mostly, the people who really should hear these discussions never show up here.

We all should be less attacky and more conversational.

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Also, I never advocated changing jobs as a FIRST resort. It’s a LAST resort. Like moving house because you just can’t handle the neighborhood anymore. That’s not the first thing you do when the neighbor’s teenage son throws a kegger party and you can’t sleep. Moving is the LAST thing you do after you’ve exhausted all other avenues of redress and the problems just keep getting worse and worse.

Same for changing jobs. Changing jobs is the nuclear option in this discussion. People keep thinking that it’s being set out there as THE SOLUTION TO EVERYTHING. I never said it that way. But people are jumping to that wild conclusion that that’s what’s being advocated. I haven’t seen even one person on here say it’s what women should do as a matter of course.

Imho: sysadmins have way more time on their hands than programmers.