Whether you meant it or not, your comments came off as if there isn’t a larger systemic problem that needs addressing. By talking about your experiences (not that they aren’t relevant) as your stepping stone (and generally focusing on the leaving the job aspect, rather than on the larger systemic aspect we’re trying to work on here), you did come off as condescending. You may not have meant it in that way, and I’m sure you didn’t, but that’s how it came off. No one called you a chauvinist or thought you were one - just that you are missing what we are saying to you about the problems that many of us face regularly. No one thinks you’re mean. Just that you’re not getting what we’re saying to you. If you thought we meant that, I’m sorry, but we didn’t.
Look - many of us have worked in hostile environments and had little to no recourse. And if we get upset, it’s largely because we’re constantly told (not by you, but by many, many, MANY people) that it’s not a problem and if only we’d work harder and ignore this stuff, it would go away. It’s a touchy subject, because it’s our lives.
And I constantly attempt to be conversational on this topic (not just here) and get little to no respect or traction. I’d suspect other women feel this way as well. And of course, we’re constantly being told that we need to wait and be patient and to be more polite about this problem. But it’s 2015. At what point are we allowed to get angry about it and demand equal treatment and respect?
I’m sure you know this, but it’s not the point we’re attempting to make. It’s about equal respect for all co-workers.
So, if you scroll back up through my comments, how many times did you read that I am in favor of equality, ie “equal respect for all co-workers?” And actually using the word “equal.” And yet, your read of what I wrote is that it’s condescending.
As I’ve said, the bbs needs to transform from being so much “attacky” and “reacting” to more conversational and responsive. Being more generous with each other. Aren’t we friends here, trying to promote a friendly, conversational environment for discussion? This isn’t Reddit. The people who show up here for these discussions are hardly the enemy of all that is right and good.
The male and female conversational styles are too different. It’s not about the solution (is there even a solution possible here?) it is about empathy.
Just to get dragged OT for a minute, IMO @awjt barely erred if at all on the side of advocating quitting, and maybe it was appropriate for some peeps to point out that wasn’t a satisfactory option.
Instead, one or two folks got their hackles up and took the dimmest view they could spin from his words, and inspired a counterproductive game of stacks-on for the rest of the thread.
This seems pretty usual when the subject is related to identity politics, and it’s a waste of energy that bugs me. Most of us recognise each other here, right? I mean, we have a rough idea of each other’s friend/foe profile across a spectrum of angles, yeah?
So, can’t we acknowledge for the most part that the crosshairs of our ire should rarely be directed at each other, but most often in the third person or at the occasional blow-in fuckwad?
(I’m sure some folks are going to find my characterisation of the situation a little extreme, because I had trouble communicating the notion without over-emphasising it a bit. Just, you know, multiply it by 0.5.)
I never accused you of not being in favor of equality. I never accused you of anything. I felt you weren’t paying attention to what the women here were saying.
Absolutely.
And why they don’t listen? Do you not understand it makes us feel less welcome when we’re not allowed to speak as we wish? No one called you names, or accused you of being a bigot, or thought you weren’t doing the right thing in your own life. We asked you to listen.
Actually, if you want to talk in your sleep, I’m pretty sure that’s cool too.
Like I was saying, I had trouble making my point quietly enough - but don’t you think there was a bit of a derail back there? If awjt didn’t make it clear enough he was speaking of quitting as a last resort at first, he certainly reiterated it.
I guess now it’s my turn to get straw-manned some?
You know, what? Never mind. It’s, once again, not worth it to speak up for myself, so I’m just gonna leave it there. Enjoy the thread about women being talked over, guys. Please let us know when you’ve come up with a solution…
You just accused me of not paying attention and not listening.
Where in any of what I wrote did this happen? Where did I imply or state outright that it is OK? Where did anyone stop you?
Where is anyone speaking over you here? This is text. On the internet. You can post 12 more times in a row or post a novella and I don’t even think discourse is going to stop you.
Nobody is not listening. You are coming in loud and clear. Nobody is dismissing you.
OK, then scratch ALL of it.
Scratch all the suggestions that were written so far. No banding together at work to form alliances. No speaking truth to power. No exaggerated eyerolls at meetings and passive aggressive comments calling out over-talkers and mansplainers. No cornering the boss to give him a piece of your mind. No changing jobs as a last resort. None of that. Scratch it all off. It’s been dismissed as unhelpful, irrelevant to the cause. Let’s start completely over, but not include any of those suggestions, new material only.
OK, then. What other ideas do people have to put on the table?
Guys guys guys guysguysguys you are straight up arguing now. And dominating the convo. Ironic right?
I’m wondering if there are productive ways to break the male domination of conversation. When I Google Fu it up, all I find are snarky ideas. I want some ways to stop a man from his mansplain when you actually like the guy and want to preserve his dignity and your relationship with him. I want ways to get a man in charge to open up to the people who aren’t in charge. Anyone have ideas?
I am sorry gender discussions tend to play out according to standard gender stereotypes
I am going to go back to my original idea
attempt to track basic simple data around who is speaking and how much, so there is data to work with not opinions
try to get support for a general discussion policy that…
nobody should dominate
anyone who wants to speak gets an opportunity to, by being explicitly asked
Maybe, when you detect that two people are just replying to each other and not the rest of the group, you could change the display of those posts from the typical post, reply, reply, reply, etc… to something resembling a chat log. Truncate the visual space the conversation takes up and let the rest of the thread flow around it better.
I’m sorry you want to close it down at this point. I can also understand the frustration.
When the first tantrum showed up in the thread and we all flagged it I felt kind of good about getting the topic rolling again, but then it didn’t reopen. After pushing a bit to try to make that happen, I didn’t want to come across as being overly dominating of a gender related topic that was started by someone not of my gender. So, I decided to stay out of the conversation.
It got tricky when a bunch of the guys, who I’m sure all mean well, started bantering about ideas and “solutions” without any female voice in the conversation, or any real talk of how to resolve systemic issues.
I’m going to be blunt here. If the guys can leave their egos aside and not get defensive, realizing that the issues being brought up are cultural, and systemic, and be willing to take a few hits, and just listen, this might go somewhere still.
Can the thread be converted to invite-only, controlled by @ChickieD? Other controls? Then she would literally control the rules of discourse in the thread. Experiment.
That seems a bit of a burden to put on @ChickieD. I’d like to at least see an iteration of us “men folk” making sure we aren’t dominating the conversation. (Self control, empathy, and the like.)
I’ve been studiously staying out this thread, but lurking to see if anything useful comes up for dealing with a rather boorish individual who loves the sound of his own voice so much he talks over everyone …
