You can get a super fun game out of any premise. I think that’s part of what makes the somewhat limited premises found in AAA titles disappointing.
9 Likes
Your expression of misogyny: ignore the misogyny in video games because that aspect of culture is not real (despite your self-representation of being a hard core gamer). This is where if you stop… just stop and look in the mirror you might learn something.
But my money is on your being a self-unaware casual misogynist.
2 Likes
Oh dear dark lord where did this thread go to.
I had a very hard time playing through most of the main/middle plot of LA NOIRE.
I didn’t realize how much I bit my tongue and tried not to puke until this episode of Tropes.
I felt glad that I’d not played many of the games depicted. Earlier versions of Hitman were sufficiently uncomfortable.
3 Likes
“that was me when I was a teenager and I have not yet raped, bashed or murdered anyone.”
wow, well done. i’m not sure how you’ve managed to not rape anyone, considering what i’ve read on the interwebs. i, personally, cut my balls off three years ago so i could actively represent the social movement’s positive affirmation of gender equality.
men, you should consider doing the same. just go ahead and cut the rest of your (not already mutilated) genitals off in order to find the way to comfort and peace for everybody. huzzah.
Oh you poor, sad, persecuted little man! It must be so hard walking around in a miserable crouch like that all the time because you’re constantly being kicked in the balls. Damn those castrating feminazis, how DID they ever get so much power anyway???
1 Like
I’m not sure I’m misrepresenting you, I’m stating that I think that treating women as sexual object is dehumanzing, to my mind. Women’s inherently value shouldn’t be in their attractiveness. I don’t think that erases sexuality, but it does in fact dumb it down - making it all about the male gaze, not about women’s enjoyment of sexuality. You may not feel that this is what is happening in Sin City (or video games) or whatever other context you had in mind, but I happen to feel that way. Women are still being paraded around for men for the male gaze. Full stop. You may not agree with me, and that’s fine. It may not bother you, and that’s fine too. But I think it’s true. YMMV
If you still feel like I’m misrepresenting your views, my apologies. It seems to be that you feel that a sexy woman does not equal dehumanizing. But I’d argue that it can. If the sexiness is not about the women, but about feeding male fantasies, that’s a problem that we should at the very least talk about.
1 Like
Sexuality isn’t the same as commodification or anonymization of a person. I’m saying you shouldn’t conflate the two ideas. I didn’t, and by quoting only that small part of my discussion you omitted the fact that I didn’t. I was specifically discussing only the movie at that point. Even in this response, you’re trying to discuss both film and representative games as though they are directly related, and treat women the same way. They don’t.
The games use women as NPC background. They aren’t meant to be anything more than incidental shock value.
In Sin City, women have starring roles, and are central to theme. They aren’t just furniture. Their attractiveness is part of the story - partially due to genre - men are in love with them (and they are in love with men) or obsessed with them, and that drives story. It’s a sexual story - it even discusses the fact that women understand the falseness of being on that stage dancing or taking on another type of life. You can’t ignore story when discussing the value of including content.
Was homosexual sex necessary for Brokeback Mountain?
Was drinking necessary for The Days of Wine and Roses or Leaving Las Vegas?
If you haven’t seen it, you may want to watch Sin City Part 2. It may change your position on the series.
Spoiler: In it, Nancy, the dancer played by Jessica Alba, emotionally breaks down. She comes to terms with the fact that she is an erotic dancer and we hear what that means to her for her own self worth. We don’t only see her on the stage. We see her drunk - wanting to not “be pretty”, and taking vengeance for actions against her and the death of the man she loved.
Women are dehumanized by not being allowed to just be who they are - whoever they are. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a woman being sexy and strong and smart. I’m sorry, but it really doesn’t sound like you’ve ever seen either film or read the graphic novels.
Well, I didn’t think you were, so if I made it seem as if you were conflating the two, I apologize.
I’m aware of this.
When I saw the first film (admittedly not long after it came out), it still came off as sexualization (not sexuality) to me. YMMV. I don’t think you’re wrong for that view, I just happen to disagree with it. Nor should you not like something that I find questionable. Fair enough, I’ve not seen the second film, and I haven’t read the comics, either. I have to say that Frank Miller isn’t one of my favorite comic writers. I know, Dark Knight and all that, but he’s just not my cup of tea.
While of course flim and games are different mediums, I do think that much media is still guilty of dishing up eye candy for guys in the shape of hot women, precisely because it sells, not because they are strong women characters - though there have been more films that indeed have both strong women who are attractive. I don’t think that makes the women in Sin City less interesting, less full characters who drive the story (especially it seems like this second one), but it’s still women who are created to titillate men and get their butts in the seats. I just don’t see that as empowering women or seriously including them in this sort of culture.
I fully agree with this statement. But we are still talking about culture created by mostly men, mostly for men - in both cases. The element of sexualization is still there, IMHO. Sorry if we disagree on this, but hey, that’s life, right? We get to have different opinions on topics like this… 
What I wasn’t happy with was you taking one sentence out of context from a much longer discussion on the same page. By doing so, you removed all my statements about value of character - which said exactly what you then said in your response to that one sentence!
I had already discussed that as an issue. You just didn’t bother to quote me on it. You’ve apologized for that, and thanks for doing so. If you’re aware that you’re combining the two ideas, then you should already know how they are different in that Sarkeesian’s argument is against NPCs - not characters with central roles in stories.
The sex in Sin City is a part of the film noir genre, and isn’t consistently being used to be attractive, sexy, or glamorizing. It’s a plot device, and it’s used to drive story. Women and men both are supposed to be controlled and controlling through private relationships. I really do recommend you see part 2.
Hey, I never said we couldn’t have different opinions - that’s never a problem for me - go read what I wrote to millefink. I was happy to disagree with her as well - before you ever even quoted me. I don’t mind agreeing or disagreeing - I know not everyone agrees with everyone else. My only problems here have been your use of my words in a way that didn’t reflect what I had actually said in full.
If you want a last word - please take it - I’ll walk away from this now, Falcor, I’m not trying to take over a thread.
There’s a game with a very similar premise to that. Viscera Cleanup Detail. The idea is you’re a janitor sent in to clean up an area after a first person shooter went through. You pick up all the bullet casings and body parts and other crap and incinerate them. You also mop up all the blood and ichor and other bodily fluids. And it’s co-operative multiplayer so you can clean up as a team.
“Women” in this case is a shorthand way of saying “women-shaped collections of pixels and program logic”; you’ll find that this kind of thing is understood by most native speakers of human languages on your visit to this planet.
1 Like
Fair enough! We are somewhat derailing!
1 Like
But my money is on your being a self-unaware casual misogynist.
You know why this topic brings out the trollies? If anyone dares express an opinion that isn’t complete and immediate agreement, that person gets labelled all kinds of things. When one side leaves no space for discussion or dissenting opinion, what do you think the outcome is going to be?
Because I think there are other bigger, more destructive and influential forms of misogyny in society than video games suddenly I am a casual misogynist. Way to engage in dialogue there. Telling other people what to think going to be a really successful pursuit, I’m sure.
1 Like
This topic was automatically closed after 5 days. New replies are no longer allowed.
