Mod note: Many good points have been brought up here. But the post needs to stay on topic. If you have other points to speak on, start a new thread.
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People tend to focus on extreme trauma and blows to the head to understand mental illness, but this is really what a large part of it is about - the everyday. An individual may be in a wheelchair from a car accident, but we donāt say, āDamn car accidentsā every time they canāt go up a flight of stairs, we say, āWhereās the ramp?ā
And actually that really ties into the tips here to prevent suicide contagion. They say, donāt make suicide about a single event or present it as a solution to a single problem. Thinking of mental illness as having some kind of single cause instead of thinking of it as an everyday fact of life is a factor in making suicide seem like a good option. If you will never be happy because of something in your past, then what is there to live for? On the other hand, if you can start looking for your own ārampsā to ease the problems you encounter every day then there is something to work towards.
It would really help, though, if it wasnāt so much up to individual people with mental illnesses to build their own ramps. Why does it seem like geniuses so often suffer from mental illness? It might be because they see how objectively awful we are to one another.
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I wish there were a way to automatically confer a +10 āgood postā tag to your post.
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Yes, yes. yes. yesā¦ did I say yesā¦ Just to be clear, I am not knocking therapy, medication, or anything else, these are, as you say, ramps. But I think we have larger problems we need to address as a society.
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If only there were a badge that could grant that privilege.
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Thatās twice youāve attempted to hijack the thread. And youāre generalizing poorly. I care about the suicide of veterans because Iām a veteran and I have friends who have skirted that horrible road. So maybe take your concerns to a new forum post or start a foundation to help people in that dangerous state of mind, but youāre not garnering anything worthy with this current method.
Thatās my opinion.
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Well, at this point we only need two more likes for Humbabella to achieve the badge manually.
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I, for one, and finding that I am very triggered by this news, yes.
He was just a good guy, kind, funny, talented. Like so many mentally ill and addicted people - he deserved help, he deserved to be given a stage, he was more than wanted and needed in our world - and yet what could we really give him but a stay at Hazelton, maybe some anti-depressives? fck that sht -there should be more we can and are doing. There should be more tools in our toolboxes. there should be more help for all the wonderful people out there who could use a little help getting through hard days.
Two years ago, a friend of mine who, like Robin, had it all in life - beautiful home, wonderful wife that he loved and who loved him, cute dogs, prosperous business, writing talent, so funny with a sense of humor totally in the gutter - killed himself. And with all this news, Iām just so mad and sad again, and miss him so much.
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Iām so sorry.
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If you are talking about why there isnāt great treatment for suicidal people, part of the reason is that it is difficult under medical ethics to use experimental treatment on people who might kill themselves and many ethics boards are scared to authorize such research. Marsha Linehan (the inventor of one of the most effective suicidal patient treatments for BPD) has noted that the two types of patients that that nobody knows how to treat are suicidal patients and pregnant women. But this also has a trickle down effect. When testing drugs, like antidepressants, people who are at risk of suicide are excluded. Here is a great talk she gave on the topic:
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Thanks - that is interesting; I hadnāt considered that aspect. I wasnāt really talking about suicide per se, but just more help for mental illness. I feel like we, as a society, have chosen to shun people who have mental illness and in our minds think they are all ābatshitā crazy people who are not like the rest of us - the people who think they are God or who mutter to themselves.
Robin Williams was much more like the mentally ill people I know. Functional, even extraordinarily so, but also, hey, dude needs help with the little things the rest of us take for granted, like getting out of bed on some days, or feeling loved, or learning how to cope with hard emotions, getting stuck in a loop is how I think about it. Depression, drug abuse, these are things we can examine and develop treatments for, and there is so much needā¦
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As the video above noted (at least by 2007 when the video was made), there hasnāt been a study showing that treating depression reduces suicide, hospitalization reduces suicide, drugs reduce suicide, etc. And treatments for depression (again at least by 2007) usually exclude people at risk.
You are wondering why we canāt develop treatments and Iām giving you the answer (and it isnāt just related to suicide): we assume that we are currently treating these disorders and then consider any deviation from that as a riskāeven if there is no evidence that the current accepted treatment works! And by considering it a risk, ridiculous restrictions get put in place that prevent scientists from performing the effective studies (such as suicide studies that exclude people with mental illness or the undefined āhigh riskā).
The video above goes into this in depth and cites the numbers, the research, etc. I know it is very long, but to anyone who is actually interested in understanding the issues with suicide research, I canāt imagine a better primer.
Despite the title here, the CDC article doesnāt really get specifically into the issue of famous people, just people in general. I wonder if the considerations involved are different when the person is famous. Iād imagine they would be, but donāt know in what way.
Thank you for understanding what a lot of people donāt, or canāt: itās an illness, not a failure. Some people liken it to cancer; Iāve taken to calling it ādiabetes of the brain.ā There arenāt enough tools, there isnāt enough support on a basic level for people with this illness. Iāve been off-meds for two years, and Iām holding on, but just barely. The money, and the resources just arenāt there for me yet - not if I want to keep my home, and keep my partner and I fed.
This sentence keeps kicking around in my head since I heard the news yesterday, and I havenāt been able to shake it:
If someone like him - with all his resources, fame, money, good-will - still ends up succumbing to death by depressionā¦ what the fuck chance do I have?
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Feel that deserves a hug rather than a ālikeā.
And that sentence is rattling around in my head too. To come full circle, this famous personās suicide should be a call to action. Real, stuff gets changed, action. Maybe we could write about that on the internet.
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Thanks - I didnāt listen to the video because I was at work and need my headphones to listen to a training piece I was working on, but I am interested. Thanks for telling me a little more about the content. I should have a chance to view it today.
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Fair enough. Donāt skip out on the ~30 minute mark where she hits on DBT. It wonāt make sense at first, but the conclusion at ~40 minutes is amazing. IMHO she deserves the Nobel Prize in medicine. She has a greater understanding of suicidal behavior than any psychologist I have ever read or watched.
Edit: Also, I want to say Iām sorry for your loss, and I hope this discussion isnāt stressful.
Edit2: If you want to go into more detail, review part 1 of the lecture (another hourābest followed by Dr. Marsha Linehanās Part 2) by Dr. Barbara Stanley who focuses more on the idiocy of research review boards.
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Iām not sure how to put this, because suicide is an issue that has been a significant part of my life so I have had many different thoughts, memories, and theories about it and am not settled in any way in my opinion on the subject.
One thing I have found very helpful is learning how sincerely people in the know (for example, psychiatrists) feel that suicide is a terrible injustice to the victim: that if only theyād been afforded the right kind of help in time, they wouldnāt have had to make such a permanent choice. So often we are given info that helps us āunderstandā how the victim got to the place of believing suicide was the right course of action. Itās great to acknowledge personal agency in life choices, and that there are some extreme difficulties that can make life truly unbearable, but I think the way suicide is covered in the media makes it seem like the problem lies solely in the grief of any loved ones left behind. Therapists who work with those who are at risk for suicide seem to feel that the problem is meta, that it is an indication of all we are not doing to help people in crisis. Kind of like the canary in the mineshaft, I guess is one way to put it.
So I guess Iām saying that I think the way to write responsibly about suicide in a public format is to always include a professional voice representing the facts about how hard it is to get the treatment right but despite that, it is very important to try because it can be done in most cases. Those who are at risk for attempting suicide have already thought about how their loved ones will feel (which may or may not be an accurate read on the situation), so showing the anguish of those left behind isnāt really a deal-changer.
I think this builds on the theme of Mindy and my comments that there seems to be a deficit in kindness and respect for one another in our culture (Iām not convinced it was better at another time or place, but I think we have the capacity to do better now). To go one step further up the canary-mineshaft chain, itās not just that suicide completers (thatās CDC sheet for this neutral term) are the canaries for other people in crisis, but that people in crisis are canaries for everyone who isnāt currently in crisis.
Iām pretty sure I saw your posts in the āYouāre free genieā thread so youāve been reading that one. The unkindness in that thread is staggering. A large number of the comments seem to be, āWell, if I express my feelings then you shouldnāt tell me how that made you feel, or how that might make someone else feel,ā and āIf other people want to kill themselves then thatās their problem.ā
This is very true, but Iād emphasize that the odds that they have an accurate read on the situation are very slim (at least in the moment that they are actually attempting suicide).
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