I think this is the heart of the matter. We can debate “coerced” vs “empowered” but until there are no negative consequences associated with porn, there will be no end to that argument. For some it’s coercion, sometimes by force. For others it’s not, or at least it’s not clear.
Who knows - maybe this millennial generation will be the first to destigmatize sex work, or at least sex shaming, in some way. After all, this is the generation that is growing up with the technology that has made it so easy to take nude pictures, and to have those pictures inadvertently shared with others. Someone of my generation would be horrified if a nude picture came up in a search engine that someone might check for a background check, but maybe these kids will be more blase about it; "of course I’ve had nude pics hacked from my phone - what kind of prude hasn’t!"
Sorry, just being silly. I have no experience with this subject, there are a million edge cases I don’t understand, it is something that I think would be important for me to understand, but I barely know where to begin.
We have talked about this, I am a bit of a prankster, but I am neither mean, abusive, or dishonest. And I hope to learn something from the comments here, even if I am a little silly.
I get the feeling the documentarians might have chanced upon a particularly nasty, successful nest of sleazebags in florida. Maybe the documentary should more honestly have been about them.
I bet a problem is always that when there is a choice between two stories – the inhuman victimizers and the human victims – the latter is a kind of storytelling easy mode. But then it becomes a story about the victims’ responsibility for their own happiness, which is a problem.
It came across as mocking those of us who were taking the discussion seriously and also you being afraid that if you did take part in the discussion (which you are actually taking part in…?) it would mean you’d get unecessarily reamed or something, as if we’re all big meanies looking to bring you down. That said, I don’t think it was at all intentional and I think you were just trying to bring some levity and it sort of fell flat, but in general you leave thoughtful comments and I enjoy our conversations so no worries. At this point I’m derailing now weee!
You know, you’re probably close to the truth. Also, in Florida, they have VERY VERY VERY loose privacy laws. Arrest records and stuff are, if I remember correctly, public. Journalists have WAY more freedom to write about things that may not be legal to write about publicly in other states. So basically, everything you do in Florida can be seen and read by all.
This is the biggest reason why Florida comes across as so wackadoodle. We see all of it. I also bet it makes it easier for disadvantaged folks to be taken advantage of, as well as harder for people who make poor decisions or have bad luck to fix their mistakes in the future, because it is ALL OUT THERE for everyone to see.
I give you my sincere word I will never mock you or your ideas. I will debate ideas and tell silly, surreal jokes. Mocking is something I just don’t do, except to myself.
They could have done this study entirely with young women from Utah, which seems to contribute more than its share of girls looking for escape through porn … so I’m told.
Sadly, technology can make the trade significantly safer for everyone, but that is being actively shut down by the government.
I remember reading of a site that allowed prostitutes and johns to view each other, rank and review each other, and negotiate better prices. Everyone liked it. Abusive Johns were black listed. Good johns were cherished. The women with particular talents or skills could charge more due to the reviewers saying it was worth the extra amount. The prostitutes could also network and do some price fixing to a degree.
I see your point it is complaining about the problem or warning of the problem with out offering solutions. But there is not easy solution. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t urge caution, right? I don’t have a solution to ending gang violence, but if I am in a violence prone area I am going to exercise caution.
And at the same time, let’s not pretend it’s all rainbows and unicorns. Somehow I stumbled onto a forum for strippers. OMG. The stuff there makes you lose faith in humanity. You mentioned naivety early, and I had forgotten about this. Naivety is only one issue. There is also a ton of ignorance.
Good fucking point! Thank you for bringing it up. I mean, the cam-girl business was booming for a while for a reason (it’s not anymore, not really, for various reasons I won’t get into). But it was a safe way for women to create their own porn largely on their own. So yeah, good point all around. I am very pro positive sex work, as you can see! A few of my friends utilize technology to direct and distribute their own female/feminist friendly porn, too!
I also know people involved in the web hosting and billing aspects of major porn websites. I have a lot of porn-related t-shirts. Including one black shirt that has the url of a porn site in big, bold, white letters, on its back. Which I once wore to the gym on accident, and of course I was in the front row of machines.
Out of naivete, it seems like there is a lot of conflation going on here in this forum of “sex work” and “amateur Internet porn”, which is at least nominally regulated and forced to comply with local, state, and federal laws.
And per the Boing Boing post, it sounds like the issue here is more about working conditions and labor law and not anything really specific to the type of work being done. I assume we’re not moving on to the much more horrifying aspects of kidnapping / sex trafficking and drug abuse.
Anyway, again forgetting the specificity of the work, it is like many industries (like fast food) with low margins, rampant competition, and high job fungibility - the skills are basically be young, attractive, and have no other reasonable prospects - so one would expect that:
the wages suck;
the job conditions suck;
the turnover is high;
therefore, the ability to unionize and collectively bargain is severely compromised;
and the industry must provide alternative means of “payment” to its workers (travel! empowerment! flexible hours!);
which are no subsistute for actual payment, like health benefits and cold hard cash.
Again, these aren’t exclusive to amateur porn, and so only the particular stigma of sex work is what makes this a “dreadful mistake”, when the real dreadful mistake was not doing anything worthwhile with their lives to avoid being a marginal member of the workforce.
In fact it would be awesome to rewrite the article talking about the dreadful mistake of signing up to work as a stock boy at Lowe’s at 20.
The film-makers were here at IU a couple of months ago, gave a couple of talks, and showed the film at our nifty IU Cinema. The woman in the film cover photo (which she took, by the way, she’s started doing photography with some of the money she earned while doing porn) came to see it (for the first time) and talked quite a bit afterwards. When asked “Given what you’ve seen and been through and what you know now, do you think you’d make the same choices?” She said she definitely would. She got to travel, to see interesting places, to do a lot of things that she couldn’t have done in her home town, and although she didn’t become a porn star (and almost none of the women she worked with did), it was overall a positive experience.
The film is worth seeing, the topic is certainly worth discussing!
For another view of slightly more “pro” pro-am porn business, see also the Netflix-available “Kink.com” – warning, though, kink.com is explicit. Hot Girls Wanted talks explicitly, but shows no sex scenes.
“I get the feeling the documentarians might have chanced upon a particularly nasty, successful nest of sleazebags in florida”
Maybe not… all except for the forced blowjob film-makers (who definitely come across as sleazebags) the overall impression one gets watching the film is “Huh. All these people seem pretty decent.” In extended conversation with the film-makers, they said the same thing.
“I bet a problem is always that when there is a choice between two stories – the inhuman victimizers and the human victims – the latter is a kind of storytelling easy mode. But then it becomes a story about the victims’ responsibility for their own happiness, which is a problem.”
Yes, good thought – actually, I felt like the latter is the story being told in a way… well, at least when followed up by a live talk by one of the young women about what she herself feels, has learned, is learning…
In longer more recent conversation with the film-makers… most of what the Vice author says doesn’t ring true. They, and the film, are more nuanced than Shepherd makes them sound. (It’s possible that the version of the film shown here at IU was not the same as the one Shepherd saw, and not the same as the one released on Netflix… the text graphics mentioned and some of the other materials may have been weighted a bit differently.)
For example, this photo is from a scene close to the end. The guy on the couch is one of the “procurers” – the one we get to know, who finds and brings the young women to Florida… and lives with them, takes care of them, chauffeurs them around, etc. You can see that they like him and bond with him and seem to think fondly of him.
Most of the on-set filming is similar, the camera people, directors, actors, make-up people are all pretty respectful, gentle, nice to each other… (except for the forced-blowjob film-makers which were… gross… nasty… seemed seriously, truly misogynist)
Yes. I’m enjoying the thoughtfulness. As usual, I wish more people commenting would see/have seen the film we’re commenting on, but talking about the topic is very worthwhile anyway.
