No in this mythology he’s the “helper”. Like a slave elf.
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That’s yet another big annoyance on my end; neither man speaks for our community, yet racial apologists and bigots alike are always dredging them up as if they do.
Like myself, many Black folks see them as politically irrelevant; all they do is regurgitate the same unhelpful rhetoric that goes nowhere.
They are mere figurehead icons that are more useful to bigots and White nationalists than they are to people of color.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; the Black community in America hasn’t had a real leader to guide us since Malcolm and Martin were assassinated.
What country are you in, just out of curiosity?
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Isn’t there someone who gives coal to the bad kids? Who’s that?
That’s the Krampus, not that the differentiation is much better:
And IIRC, he doesn’t give out coal in all versions; he kidnaps bad children in a sack and eats them.
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Spent two years in the Netherlands. My partner was teaching at Twente.
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I disagree and I’ll leave it at that.
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That was an enlightening time for you, I’m sure.
I wish there was an effective, non-exploitative way to foster widespread exposure to other cultures and walks of life for the average American person who’s never traveled outside their home town, and has never met anyone who isn’t in the same demographic.
It seems to me that empathy & understanding are the key to solving these societal problems; and being able to actually ‘walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes’ would do so many people a world of good.
(Of course that sounds great in theory, but I have no idea whatsoever how such an endeavor could feasibly be implemented in a way that is both practical and financially viable.)
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Oh, yes. And if you’re neurotypical (I’m not; but I’m a migraneur, which is pretty close) and you aren’t consciously managing your response to the sheer irritatingness of other people, you’ve probably gone looking for offense yourself. I know I have, although I quite consciously avoid doing so, with varying levels of success.
“Once we’re angry, irritated, we become prosecutors, and our reasoning gets hijacked by our need to build our own case.” --psychologist Jonathan Haidt.
Again, yes. And (in my opinion) that’s a valid criticism of me personally, even if you didn’t mean it that way. I’m working on it.
Honestly I would categorize being determined to find something disagreeable to you as being the same thing as being determined to take offense. It’s kind of what you do with it that matters, though - do you ask the person to use different words, or to clarify, or do you castigate them and impute evil design to them? Big difference!
But, (slight sidetrack, personal example) you’ll notice that while I don’t talk directly to you very often, I “like” a lot of your posts. That’s because I usually agree with you, and I have a way to affirm my appreciation of your statements that is equivalent to nodding vigorously while you’re talking. So I guess I am a mortal sinner where you are concerned, but that has the side effect that we hardly ever talk directly to each other, and it makes a surface reading of a thread look like nothing but arguing.
Well, the definition you gave was the same as the first five hits I got from just typing the word into Google. It’s literally the dictionary definition. But I’m always willing to clarify, if someone doesn’t fly off the handle preemptively and cut me off.
Having the results of my own and my daughter’s DNA tests in hand, I can tell you that believing your family’s ancestral tales is pretty error-prone. The DNA guys say the majority of dark-skinned Americans who have been assured they have American Indian blood actually don’t, because politics. 
But on the up side, I am rather notably Neanderthal. Don’t everybody look all surprised now.
Well I’m enjoying hearing you, for whatever that’s worth. And I think you are expressing yourself far more effectively than I am, too.
I think there’s two kinds of talking. If you are speaking for your own internal reasons, because you want or need to express yourself, then other people have no right to try to direct your language or criticize your tone, and people who understand what is happening won’t even try. You don’t tell an artist where to put her paintbrush. But if you are trying to communicate towards an external goal - not just trying to get your words out, but trying to make changes in the world with your words - anyone else who shares (or just respects) that goal will want to help you express those words in the most effective manner, and they have every reason to counsel politeness, screaming, molotov cocktails or whatever they think will be more effective. And you can just ignore them, of course, if you think they are wrong.
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That’s exactly what I’m saying! Popo’s family mayyyy be full of stories as is quite common, and genealogy is what it wants in order to not promote (convenient or mythic) falsehoods.
I know I’d certainly want to verify the veracity of these claims not just to know myself but if I was using it as evidence for… anything.
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Anecdotal;
Among the many different “flavors” that make up the melting pot of my family lineage, there’s some Native American/Indigenous People in there too, but I don’t make any claims of belonging to any particular tribe, because I lack sufficient documentation. Other than a dog-eared old photo of an ancestor who is clearly Native, I don’t have much to substantiate that part of my heritage.
One aspect of this discussion that hasn’t been adequately addressed is this;
When it comes to prejudice, stereotypes and bias in America, it’s often not about a person’s actual ethnic make up so much as it is how they physically look.
Being 1/867th Native (or Black, or whatever) is rather a moot point if one appears White upon ‘first inspection.’ As one of my now deceased mentors used to say,
“It’s all a gas… if you can PASS.”
Having such ‘roots’ does not in any way negate the privilege that goes with being considered White.
And it also doesn’t mean that one is somehow ‘incapable’ of being bigoted; it’s been shown repeatedly that the internal self hatred of specific individuals within any demographic is a huge part of the problem when dealing with prejudice, bigotry and misogyny.
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My partner and I used to be seethingly jealous of our friends who got to travel with their parents or who did study abroad. But now I’m glad that when I finally got to go overseas it was to live for a bit as an adult who had to actually navigate all the bureaucracy and household setup etc.
I’d like to expand study abroad programs to more people as a start but I agree people really could use more of a cultural exchange than that.
We are just now getting into a situation where vacation travel is possible but we’re spending most of that time and money just going back to New Orleans when we can to see our last living grandparents while we still have the chance.
People talking about never having been in a black person’s house or never having held or hugged a black person has been making me glad that I grew up in my neighborhood in New Orleans East. It’s not the neighborhood I would have picked at the time but growing up in an overly white island is not healthy.
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How do you figure? I explained upthread that I did such a search, and it left me with questions. My searches indicated that it is a problem with white speakers, and people are trying hard to disregard that. Here are some examples:
This Brief Talk Brilliantly Explains What Black People Hear When White People Call Them ‘Articulate’
It is amazing that this still requires clarification, but here it is. Black people get a little testy when white people call them “articulate.”
It’s being used to describe a black person around whom white people can be comfortable, a black person who not only speaks white America’s language but is fluent in its body language as well.
Readers over the age of 30 will also remember how whites got to pretend they weren’t racist by saying how great Colin Powell would’ve been if he were president; a common theme was Powell’s well-spoken and articulate.
And, speaking as a white person, when we register surprise at a black individual’s articulateness, we also send the not-so-subtle message that that person is part of a group that we don’t expect to see sitting at the table, taking on a leadership role.
So, no, searching did not explain everything I needed to know. Whether or not a word is racially loaded with meanings depends not only upon who it refers to, but the obvious context of who is saying it. How could that not possibly be relevant?
If somebody said something like (as Melz did) “Popo, you should understand that your experience is not the same the black experience.” I both appreciate and agree with that helpful remark. But if instead people presume to imply “Popo, perhaps you should check your white privilege.” they should maybe take MY word for it that I find it offensive. No, I am not black, but I have enough problems without people trying to second-guess my ethnicity. Somehow progressive people have a much easier time processing gender identity than racial/ethnic identity.
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Those quotes explain the issue, you simply don’t care.
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But who actually does that? Name any other ethnicity that people similarly undermine with appeals for “proof”? Would anybody have that attitude if I said I was Vietnamese? Or Swedish? Is your ethnicity a “claim”?
There are also huge double-standards between how mixed-race indigenous people are understood and classified in the US as compared to the rest of the Americas. The US specifically avoids recognizing mixed-race indigenous people, and it is always a controversy. But the Métis to the north and Mestizo to the south are considered a normal fact of life. In most of the Americas it is expected that you are of both American and European heritage. Regardless of “claims” or “evidence”.
But you never know when a BBS of self-professed progressives on the net might demand evidence of your ethnicity, so it is safer to be prepared.
Another variation of “the facts speak for themselves” combined with “here’s another personal remark about you”. Please refrain from speaking to me or about me from now on. Nearly every post from you is “explaining” what I am “really” saying, thinking or feeling. I think it is fucking rude, so I am telling you to stop, now.
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Anyone wanting to be acknowledged by the tribe they’re claiming, just for starters.
*shrugs
Personally, I’d kill to be able to trace my ancestral roots back to their earliest documented beginnings, but due to the severe fragmentation of the African Diaspora and the historical mistreatment of Native Americans/Indigenous People in this country, it’s unlikely that will ever be possible.
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When I was a kid and wondered how there could be a different Santa in every mall and on street corners and TV I was told the “real Santa” was busy and the lookalikes were helping him.
I think I would have liked the idea that Santa didn’t discriminate in hiring. It might have even opened me up to wonder which Santa most closely resembled the “real one”.
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Oh, I hear that so much.
A year ago, my dad got a message from a Jewish genealogist that he’d contacted a year prior. End result of that… turns out that we’re not only distantly related (7th? cousins), but now, thanks to him having done research on his own family tree, we now have my patrilineal line going back nine generations from me, instead of the four we had before that. That was a shock in the best way possible, and I’m still tearing up over it, and wishing that we could do the same for the rest of the family, because it brought the lack in those directions into sharp relief.
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Of course. But there is a severe disconnect I think of people equating one’s ethnicity with membership in a tribe. Especially when tribal recognition depends upon non-native governmental gatekeepers. My flesh and blood don’t become less real by virtue of not claiming a tribe. So I have some resentment issues there.
I would actually like to know more specifics about my ancestry, but I am not in contact with my extended family, and as I said some of them have been in either denial or dishonest about the native side. Maybe I will get some DNA tests done someday, but as I usually deal with minimalist finances I don’t know when I could possibly prioritize it.
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