Yep. My feeling is that EFF, ACLU and larger legit .org’s can tackle it most effectively through legal challenges, so give to them. Protest does have an effect, but that is such a long game, hit-or-miss, that I find it kind of low value, personally. I don’t think it’s valueless, but I think there are multiple channels of effecting change and protest is but one.
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Someone who’s a US lawyer could explain - is it illegal for the NSA to make such a database, or is it just legally inadmissible in court? e.g. Is it that you could not be prosecuted on the data held by the NSA because it’s been gathered in a way that violates the 4th amendment, but that’s ‘OK’ because their data is only ever intended for extrajudicial process - Drone Strikes, Rendition, prosecutions in which a ‘clean’ route to the evidence could be constructed to allow plausible deniability of the use of the NSA database, or ‘terrorism’ cases where we’ve been programmed to accept that due process can be thrown out of the window because the accused are automatically subhuman and don’t deserve equal protection?
We need a new amendment, to protect the Constitution itself:
“Congress shall make no law that sidesteps the Constitution or avoids judicial review in open court.”
He didn’t so much “bring them home” as he was forced to withdraw them. Obama fought like hell to keep troops in Iraq, but when Manning and Wikileaks revealed more crimes committed by U.S. forces than previously known, Iraq insisted that any soldier breaking the law in Iraq be subjected to Iraqi law. They wouldn’t budge on that, and so the troops came home.
Manning is vastly more responsible for ending our involvement in Iraq than Obama could have been, considering Obama’s efforts to the contrary.
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Alll due respect, I just don’t see anybody else looking to take such a decisive action that we can participate in directly, other than contributing cash or just sitting in the stands. Even though I see him differently myself, I don’t see it as a political endorsement of Paul, either. It’s a way for us to come together and fight back, regardless of any other differences of opinion.
If you see a better opportunity, do let me know - you know I’m down.
Yeah, I know what you are saying, but joining forces is like signing a deal with another devil.
I wish the ACLU could file a suit for all of us, or a Class Action Law firm would do it, or someone with no ulterior motives or baggage like Rand. I have no idea how to do something like this and think I’m already pegged as a trouble maker to begin with.
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How in the world could Obama protest? If he raised the slightest concern about the NSA the NSA could release whatever factoids they have gathered about him to the GOP to finally give the GOP a real reason to see him impeached. At best Obama could make a statement on the last day of his presidency. But he’s as under their thumb as any other person on this planet at this point.
The ACLU is already involved in one of the suits. This’ll get done by lawyers as a class action.
Yeah - Rand is a politician, and I’d said this won’t get solved in the political arena - and Ill stand by that. But, he’s talking taking it to the courts where it rightly belongs., so I don’t see joining the suit as a partisan action at all.
I’ve long since gotten pegged as a troublemaker, too, lol. I’m not paranoid about that, though - I’m, to put it bluntly, balls on bent on continuing to be a troublemaker in the sense of operating that freedom of assembly and speech, and to keep right on saying things the political establishment doesn’t want said. I want us to be free to argue loud and long about Rand’s personal politics, or anyone else’s if we have a mind to do so.
I’ve considered the whole matter at some length, and continued to follow further developments, same as you. What are our choices here? We can A) sit back and just hope somebody else finds a solution; B) Jump in, and call everybody else who jumps in a patriot - because this isn’t about personal politics, it’s about the right to have some personal politics.
We yelped and guffawed and swore, when Congress did this shut-down recently, because they wanted to play politics at the expense of doing the jobs they swore to do and the Constitution they swore to uphold. We’ve cussed DiFi and the others who lied and just wanted to maintain personal power no matter what it cost the rest of us. So, if we didn’t like them behaving that way, why would we do the same and allow politics to interfere? I think we’re better than that. I want us to be free to argue loud and long, and just as anonymously as we damned-well please about him or them, or anything else we choose!
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Snowden lied to some people, in order to tell the truth to many others (the American public) whom the people he lied to were lying to. So he lied to the liars in order to expose what they were lying about, which is pretty much what you have to do to expose liars in many cases, because they aren’t going to voluntarily give you the evidence of their lies.
“Oathbreaker” should only concern someone if the oath were a noble one in context of why it was broken. A soldier that refused to kill an unarmed child when it was a direct order from a superior is also an Oathbreaker. This is similar to “loyalty” as a merit - it CAN be a merit, but being blindly loyal to a person or group that’s causing massive harm to others is no longer a merit, but a liability to everyone outside the group the person is loyal to. It’s only a merit in a romantic sense, but that’s where it ends.
As for “thief”, again, this is like lying to the liars, he stole from those who were unconstitutionally stealing private information from citizens. The only way to free what was stolen was to steal the information necessary to prove the original theft to the American public, so that we could take action against those who were stealing from us. If someone stole evidence from a gang of thieves to give to the authorities to go after them, this person would never be labeled a “thief” even though plainly they stole something from someone. But of course steal from the authorities to prove they’re breaking their own laws and it’s a different story.
The means, in detail, justify the ends, in detail.
Like you said, black and white are [sic] for children.
Maybe you don’t see it as a political endorsement of Rand Paul but he certainly would and he’d exploit it for his own political purposes and agendas without hesitation.
Oaths are evil. If it’s the right thing to do, an oath isn’t necessary. If it’s the wrong thing to do, an oath can turn an oath-worshipper’s conscience against itself.
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He has no way of doing that on any personal level - I don’t even live in his state . I am also not a Republican and I am likewise free to ignore him all I like after this thing is over. I admit I do like it that he said Clapper should resign because he lied to Congress. But it was Barack Obama who claimed there should be ‘more judicial oversight’. And though I believe he lies and am also not a Democrat, I think what he said was correct - and this is an opportunity to make sure that judicial oversight happens.
So funny - you’re worried about what that guy might do at some point in the future, but what the NSA is doing is happening now. They’re the ones who like to troll your porn habits in order to blackmail you later, know where you’ve been, and who all out may be in contact with. I consider that to be the greater of all evils.
Let me ask you this. Are you just gonna complain about it, or are you gonna actually do something about it? And if so, what? Because, I’m open to all ideas. If you have a better one, I’d love to hear about it!
When you’re a right-winger, it’s “DiFi and the others.”
When you’re a left-winger, it’s “Boehner and his cronies.”
When you’re a mutant, it’s “All those effen weirdoes in DC.”
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I must be a mutant, then. So where does that leave you, lol?
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sigh. manning was able to do what he did without being caught. since doing so, she is adapting to 35 years in prison, military prison. as to claiming that obama was forced to do anything, i do not care why you might.
Not sure what Manning being caught has to do with your assertion that Obama “brought the troops home,” which is all I was addressing. He didn’t bring them home. The troops were forced to leave by an agreement made under Bush, despite Obama’s efforts to keep them there. Whether or not you care about why I think it’s important to adhere to facts in discussions of recent history has no bearing on the facts, themselves.
you obviously think that writing something down makes it true. and you brought up manning, first. as to your rudeness in presenting “facts” to me, you may apologize to a brick wall.
Weird. Re-examining my first post, I detect no rudeness (no “sigh,” no “I don’t care why”), just a recitation of documented facts. Why would I apologize?
And, no, writing something down doesn’t make it true, but being documented by news organizations tends to.
Conversely, ignoring something doesn’t make it not true.
You know, it’s okay to be corrected on the facts. When I’m corrected on facts, I view it as an educational experience, instead of a personal affront.
you apparently misunderstood apology. not getting brick wall reference either. guess you are quite incapable of having anything even vaguely resembling a conversation.
so your ‘source’ is a digital rag named salon. fascinating.
I have lots of great conversations and educational disagreements with lots of people who aren’t petulant and condescending. For some reason, I just can’t have a good conversation with petulant, condescending people. Go figure.
Not that you’ll read it, but the article has links to McClatchy, Foreign Policy, Wired, National Journal, and Politico, among others. Pretending that Obama didn’t try to keep troops in Iraq or that the withdrawal wasn’t based on the agreement made during the Bush administration at the insistence of the Iraqis, is as rationally fact based as global warming denial or young earth creationism.
So, this conversation is over, thank goodness. You can reply, but I’m not going to bother reading it. Life is too short.
Adios, Amoeba!
