John Oliver is back and he's got 24 golden minutes on Trump's pathological lies

boing
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With a healthy dose of humor and cold hard facts, I am not sure how much more you can baby talk an issue.

The people entrenched in the belief at how good Trump is wouldn’t believe it if Christ himself came down and told them.

I think the only way to make any head way with people like that is a one and one walk through - or the deep canvasing technique people are using to some positive effect.

Cognitive dissonance is too strong for anyone to be talked at and have their mind changed. If they are talked TO it might make a difference.

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“Born on third base, acts like he hit a triple.”

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Exactly, you can’t reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

You can not logic someone to leave their tribe. They pretty much have to be targeted if they’re going to gain empathy for other targets. And even then its only a maybe.

By providing different rules of engagement and proof for those outside the tribe, to those inside the tribe, the tribal bonds are strengthened. Disagree and you might be thrown to the wolves! You might be treated the way you’ve treated the outsiders. A lot of people are afraid of becoming outsiders. They just don’t get what weak tea a threat of exclusion is to someone who is already an outsider, because empathy for the individual is not going to be the strong suit to someone so tribal. Identification in tribe is to be done with the stronger, not the weaker. Identifying with the weak will only make one weak, impure is an important word that you don’t hear out loud much. (Again, this isn’t my worldview, I’m hobbling through what I know firsthand of the 20% that would support Trump even through an invasion of Canada if he said it was best)

There are some blockages you can’t get through by being nice, or mean, or sly, or correct, or right. When someone VALUES their position over another person more than they value that person… it’s all you need to know.

Objectification of people, seeing them as their value (or cost) to you rather than as whole people, is the first step down a very slippery slope. It’s not something that changes without introspection. There is no one countermove to convince someone that trump isn’t brilliant, if they believe it. Faith isn’t easily shaken, and even more rarely from theoutside.

Trump is gonna have to hurt these people to lose them, and even them, some of them will just love him more. he should open a Trump Tower in Stockholm!

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My biggest fear is perhaps something not well received here. It is that while we try finding a way to keep the extremists from tearing everything down we become as unbending and unwilling to listen or care as they do.

I see ghosts of this constantly, and while there is a time you have to walk, the constant seemingly dehumanization of our opposition scares me. They are unreasoning and refuse to budge or even give the appearance of listening, but they are neither stupid nor unfeeling.

Everyone can get taken in by the right snake oil.

So yea. That’s the big thing with me.

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Listen, you’re going to be TOLD that you are exactly that. But it frankly isn’t the case.

You have a conscience. In a conflict with someone unscrupulous it’s a weakness. I don’t suggest you lose your conscience at all. I do recommend you retune it so it doesn’t tie your shoelaces together.

My dad used to say that nobody wants to fight, but somebody has to know how.

Its a nice theory, but he was wrong. Some people only want to fight. Some of them seem on your side but want you to fight that other guy, so they can enjoy the show. “Lets you and him fight” is worth googling.

Fighting isn’t a moral failing. Fighting is a method of conflict. For you and I it’s not our primary conflict resolution tool because we have words and introspection and humility. Not everyone does. Some people only know to fight, and only stop when they’re afraid of losing something in the conflict, the conflict they really really want to have with you.

I hear you, but I think your fear here is a very active conscience, perhaps too active and being taken advantage of. You know moral from immoral. Fighting back isn’t immoral. Lying to an aggressive liar isn’t the same as lying to someone who has treated you fairly. Spreading truths about your experience isn’t rumormongering.

Don’t sweat it, and don’t let an asshole tie your shoelaces together like that.

The abyss staring at you is not you staring at the abyss. Struggling with monsters makes you the hero, not the monster.

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And every villain is a hero in their own story. I am not saying we shouldn’t. I am simply saying UNLIKE these people we should be mindful of our path. After all the pavement of good intent often has a hellish destination.

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no. There are people who are just villiians. Their story leaves things out intentionally.

Don’t imagine everyone is of conscience as you are.

Yes, I am trying to tell you exactly that.

I want you to ask yourself what your intent is, and make sure that changing other people isn’t a part of your intent. Changing people to be the way you want them to be is not actually possible, and far from laudable. That would be the hellish destination and oppressive.

Taking power from the powerful for yourself is not the point.Taking power from those who abuse it and then returning to an place of sharing and openmindedness, is.

If you think you can change someone else, you can’t. If you think everyone can be encouraged to behave well, you are not correct. You punch nazis because thats their language.

I hope your concern for how you are perceived by people who treat you very poorly serves you well.

This is about punching up at those who punch down. Punching down is the problem. Not punching, punching DOWN is the problem.

My fear is that one can be too conflict averse, many people are, it’s called being a doormat.

I am not saying we shouldn’t. I am simply saying UNLIKE these people we should be mindful of our path.

We can also be mindful to notice the doors that ‘these people’ don’t want us to use, and walk out them whenever possible. Don’t bother to punch down at a nazi when you can walk away.

That’s what makes ‘us’ different.

Also, “we” tend to recognize when our concerns that our own behavior are actually giving cover to others oppressive behavior. We have to be mindful of that too.

Why would someone fight you openly when they can get you to fight yourself?

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The other chief thing I have going on is both I do not work outside of the home, and I am in near constant contact with fairly conservative people who have conservative people as their friends.

Take as you will but I am concerned by the language I often see amongst non-conservitives that seems to dehumanize and dismiss. I’m concerned a lot of people don’t have direct contact with neocons so only go from fifth had accounts which then get taken as fact by others. This may come off as ‘I am an expert sit down’ but it’s more ‘I realize my situation is not entirely normal so I am trying to extrapolate on how someone with at best only passing acquaintance with neocons might see them going by ‘our’ articles.’

Doesn’t help ai basically stay angry/defensive. Makes recognizing help for what it is hard, so I’m sorry if I tend to be more than a bit punchy.

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nope. It come of to me as someone who wants to give credit to those who give no credit because they’re afraid to be thrown off a shipfull of fumes and feces and want to play that as a noble struggle. I can be really fucking cynical when people play that they have special problems. You don’t.

I think being gracious to those who start conflict again and again is exactly how to pave the road to hell, because I’ve been there, done that, got the t-shirt and since then ripped up all those pavers and burned the tshirt in a ceremonial fire.

You might consider that your position isn’t unique, and those here (me at least) who are going over it with you do so not because of the uniqueness of your situation, or becasue you’re totally off base, but because your position is pretty common, and the way it gets extended, in my experience at least, is by you doing what you’re doing. \

The way it gets solved is you stop enabling them to punch down at you, which they are doing. I’ve read your posts. I think when offered a hard option to consider you go on about how youdon’t want to be seen that way. Well I hope it worksout, protecting your imagae AND health from toxic people. Maybe you are THE ONE who can get through to them, but really… that’s pretty self congratulatory.

They’re probably normal people and the advice is disengage from them. They’re toxic and abusive and any desire to fix that situation might well be Stockholm Syndrome, I cant tell fromhere. And if it is, well, then you cant tell from there.

What is your goal in engaging with these people?

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They’re family. You don’t walk away lightly.

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They did.

Stop begging.

(at least it’s your step-dad. It was my actual dad)

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That video highlights the core issue of where we are now, I think, and outlines how what used to be fringe is more main stream.

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Could you at least buy me dinner first? :cry:

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Oh, everyone knows you’re just a tease.

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Depends on whether or not you buy me dinner…

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:hamburger: :fries: :beers:

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Come on, a happy meal? I’m Cynical, not Cheap.

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Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.

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