I think last night I let it rise for 8.5 or 9 hours, then today (after stretching and folding) I let it proof for a little over an hour. I think I mentioned I used less water this time, and I was able to more-or-less fold it into a ball. But it still just filled up the bowl during rising (instead of a ball growing larger which is what I expected), and after the proofing I could still barely pick the thing up in two hands (ended up using a large spoon). I was following the Breadtopia recipe, except I mixed the flour and water first and then added the starter and salt. (Also I don’t use/have a proofing basket, I just put it back in the bowl I’m already using.)
The first one I made last week was like trying to lift pancake batter with my fingers. I think I let it rise a good 12-14 hours, then I let it proof, then I realized I never added salt, then after I mixed that in I let it proof again by which time I don’t think it rose any more.
My wife thinks kneading the dough is the way to go (I would guess using some recipe with less hydration).
My first guess is that your starter isn’t strong enough when you add it; second thought is that maybe the flour isn’t as “strong” as needed, or else just old.
I would try a multi-step feeding to get the starter to a point where it’s nearly but not completely doubled within 2-3 hours and use it then, not after it has doubled.
The starter seems OK – I feed it and in 4-6 hours it doubles (then I use it). It took about 9 days to get to that point. I put the rest in the fridge, then when I tried again I let a small amount come to room temperature, I fed that, and then in a few hours it had doubled in volume.
I didn’t let the dough sit for the full 10-12 hours because I thought I’d let it go too long the first time. And I thought I’d read here or maybe at Breadtopia that the yeast might lose its mojo after rising for that long and then proofing again – thought I’d try a shorter rise. But my first attempt (aside from the other mistakes) I let it go longer than 10-12 hours and it didn’t turn out any better.
I’m using tap water which (IIRC) the King Arthur website says not to worry about (unless I can actually smell chlorine etc.). I wouldn’t have ready access to distilled water – I have a water filter on my fridge but I don’t think that removes chlorine. (I used to have a breadmaking machine and the water was never a problem – always got consistent results with it)
I’m baking at 500F, I have an enameled cast-iron pan with a lid. After 30 minutes I remove the lid and turn the heat down to 450F for another 15-20 minutes.
Thanks! I agree something else is going on (or, not…)
tl;dr: what you likely need most is practice. But bread dough isn’t cake batter: if you’re spooning it out, it’s not OK.
I like to think of bread as a very slow-motion education in what not to do. I’m warming up the oven right now for my third attempt at a 100% sourdough (no yeast) loaf. The first attempt was a little underbaked and proved weirdly, the second was too slack and dense: under-kneaded, I suspect. Third try is sitting in my “proving drawer”, aka the microwave, where it’s sat all night, hopefully at a more consistent overnight temperature. Luckily, all experiments so far have been highly edible, if not entirely beautiful.
I think my problem has been 1) not being patient enough with the starter and 2) not developing the gluten in the dough well enough. So this batch was firmer last night when I prepped it, by using the mixer to pull it together initially and watch the strands of gluten form, and then trying the “no knead” method of stretching and folding while it rested. We’ll see how it turns out. Good or bad, it will be another data point.
Making pizza weekly (even in the Before TImes) has taught me a lot about dough consistentcy, and what it looks like going into a prove vs. how it will behave coming out… and how it behaves in a cold kitchen, or on a damp day. My family is not unhappy that my schooling is forcing us to have fresh kind-of bread once a week.
I happen to have some of the trappings – a cast iron dutch oven, for example – and am improvising others (no proving basket, scarcity of flour other than all-purpose.) I keep faith in the fact that bread is an ancient human art form, and like all good art, requires practice and patience to get right.
I should’ve clarified, I was using a big spoon (and my other hand) so as to get the whole thing (or as much of it as possible) at once.
Yep, same here. The bread has been popular in any case.
(ETA:)
I lucked out and found a bag of bread flour in one supermarket, this was a few weeks ago when I couldn’t find any otherwise. I ended up ordering all-purpose and whole wheat flours from Target (shipped, not delivered from the store). The mail carrier wasn’t real happy about it and asked if I’d ordered a bag of sand, as the whole wheat had sprung a leak… As of last week, where I live, the flour has re-appeared on the shelves.
Yeah, I can’t remember when I bought the whole wheat that I used, which might mean it’s too old. (I have some more waiting in the wings)
Sounds good! So you know, you don’t actually have to bring the small amount of starter to room temperature before feeding it for your recipe: if we’re talking 5 or 10 grams of mature starter, go ahead and mix it with the flour and warm water necessary to add up to the full amount you need for the recipe right from the fridge. The cold will disappear quickly enough mixed into the larger, warmer volume.
Got it. The scientific method: change one variable at a time, to figure out what works and what doesn’t.
If it hasn’t been a problem up to now, then don’t worry about it. If you want to try changing this variable, you can leave a pitcher of water out for a couple of days, and any chlorine will have dissipated into the air.
Maybe try turning it down to 450ºF right away when it goes in, and don’t change it when you take the lid off after 30 minutes.
Variables, variables!
Good. You can smell it to see. FWIW, I ended up using WW flour that had ‘expired’ a year ago, and the resultant bread was fine to eat. However, it did require more water than normal to form the dough, because that WW flour was thirsty!
Which reminds me, the bottom of the loaf was too brown (if not quite burnt). I’ve read about placing a cookie sheet under the pot as an insulator; we have one that has a built-in insulation layer.
Forgot to mention that for the first attempt, I used parchment paper underneath the dough. I don’t think it browned as much underneath but I’d just as soon not use parchment if I don’t have to (being one more item I’d have to go out and find). (When I didn’t use any, this time, I did not have any trouble getting the loaf out of the pot, which I’d worried about. The residue cleaned up easily enough.)
And now that I’ve gone back and looked, I think I might’ve just used all-purpose instead of the bread flour I thought I was using (either that or the latter replenished itself by a few cups). Looks like the AP that Target sent me is “best by” next month, which isn’t too fresh. The whole wheat they sent, at least, is good thru Dec.
I’m going through the same process here. The best thing about worldwide quarantine is that new tribes are popping up online, and I’ve been doing deep dives into sourdough culture hehe and learning lots.
Using a Calphalon dutch oven (8qts) because it’s the only coverable oven-safe large vessel I have, I went through the stages of flattish loaf, is it burnt on the bottom?, and why is it behaving like that, this is not normal bread dough.
My new hand mixer with bread hooks and an understanding of hydration-by-feel-not-measurements for sourdough, which doesn’t behave like dry yeast dough at all, helped. By loaf 6, I’ve achieved good sourdough bread, not just survival bread, from sourdough starter and generic AP flour.
I’m still working on great-for-ap-flour. It will probably take another dozen or three loaves. I hope the flour holds out until KA is back in stock, and I can work on just plain great sourdough.
For what it’s worth, there’s a lovely family-owned organic heritage mill in central Illinois that ships anywhere in the country (maybe all of North America) and while they’re out of a lot of flours right now (I did mention that they’re small, right?), they still have a number of choices and the shipping seems to run a little faster than a week from ordering: janiesmill.com/
My local-ish place, Fowler’s Mill, switched to serving their existing wholesale customers only. I’ll be checking these out today, and they’re probably all sold out already, since today is Stimulus Day.
(BTW, yesterday was Dyngus Day. I’d never heard of it before, figuring that every day is Dingus Day , then I read it more carefully: “Oh, Dyngus Day!”)
Seitan is a good source of protein, it’s flavored gluten. You can make gluten by mixing flour with water, and then cafefully washing the resulting mix, so you wash out the bran and starch. Read up on making seitan before trying this, it’s very fragile early on.
With all the recent trend about “g!uten free” (I realize it is a problem for some people), I laugh since I have made seitan and it’s the gluten that is important.
I gather, from reading bread books years ago, that gluten is important not just for protein but also the stretchiness of the dough. If I remember properly, US flour was limited in gluten, while Canadian flour (or was it wheat?) didn’t need extra gluten. But I don’t remember full details.
Adding protein to bread is easy. Toss in some cooked soybeans. Or add a bit of soy flour, the books explain how much can be substituted for regular flour without affecting things.
My Canadian (Rogers) AP’s nutritional statement says 4g protein for 30g serving, which is over 13%. So well into bread flour territory. So I probably don’t have to add any seitanic additives. But I do look forward to playing with gluten as soon as I find some.
