But why target a Malaysian aircraft then? Wouldn’t it make more sense to hit something more relevant to the west?
But what do I know? There’s a reason I majored in Computer Science. I prefer things where the inputs and outputs make sense, which pretty much excludes 99% of politics/international relations.
Jesus Christ this is all kinds of fucked up.
Did the pilot have instructions to not fly over the Ukraine? I don’t know what the official notices are, but considering there are multiple parties with AA capabilities, I’d have gone around.
WHY they would have shot it down with out confirmation is sort of mind boggling. I say sort of because Russia does not give a fuck. Remember this is the country that exterminated millions of its own citizens a few generations ago, and Putin is old school like that.
Last report I read was Russian backed Cossacks taking credit. o_0
If it’s an accident it’s a tragedy. This is not a tragedy, it’s an atrocity.
Excitement combined with inexperience?
The question operates on the premise that the ground crew had full awareness of the nature of their target. More likely they thought they are shooting at something entirely different, at least that is my bet here.
A lot of things make sense when incompetence, haste, and their other cousins are taken in account.
Even with computers things don’t make sense every once a while. Sensors lie, databases have errors, relays get welded contacts, operators miss their cues, alarms get silenced because they are annoying, safety systems go into disrepair, old techs who knew what they are doing are replaced with cheaper greenhorns with poor training. Then we get to wonder why somebody pressed the Red Button or why a process plant blew up.
Interesting question. Conjecture that the idea is possible.
Putin sites the equipment, and simply indicates that anything in the sky should be shot down. Anything.
On the other hand, Malaysia has a long relationship with the Russians / Soviets. Their air force, for instance, is composed of both US jets (they have 11 F18s), and Russian jets. They’ve been on this dual track for some time.
I haven’t delved into the historical nature of that relationship - but believe it’s simply opportunistic playing of one side against the other - but potentially the movement of Malaysia towards stricter Sharia culture has opportuned an expression of kinship from, say, Chechen muslims.
So there might be some kind of score to settle. And Putin is working himself into a mood to settle scores. And after all, Malaysia isn’t a massive political power, but is an adequate proxy. We can all see easily where flights are around the globe these days.
I can’t see missile operators being utterly unaware of air traffic. There are so many flights a day.
Russians are brilliant at gaming systems. So the Ukraine situation is a beautifully crafted example of keeping the west out of its business whilst it takes chunks of the Ukraine.
As people have said, this was no shoulder launched missile.
I just pray, and hope, that the passengers and crew didn’t suffer. Horribly, I believe they did - these missiles likely lock onto infrared signatures - engine exhaust. Being out on the wing of a 777, basically it probably blew the wing off, or damaged it extensively, but rendered the aircraft incapable of controlled flight.
Like I say, the Russians have form in this game.
Which should really help because surely Russia will allow foreign (or unbiased) examination of the crash information.
“No, see, you can hear it when the Ukrainian pilot of the 777 says he’s going to drop his payload on Volgograd! That flight crew was nothing more than Ukrainian special forces!”
I already have the transcript:
“Tahi! Tahi! Tahi!”
The BBC is speculating that the people on the ground in Eastern Ukraine had their weapons upgraded recently. e.g. until this week, the rebels didn’t have capability to hit planes cruising at 33,000 feet. The speculation is that a new system found it’s way to Eastern Ukraine, but because the rebels are non-state operators they are not hooked into Air Traffic Control, and quite possibly their system lacked the ability to ping aircraft transponders and interpret the responses, or to use Identify Friend or Foe. There’s no proof as to who attacked the aircraft or as to what happened, but AFP apparently took pictures of a new missile launcher the rebels had set up this morning… seems plausible it’s a cock-up by someone who got a new toy and didn’t know what he was doing.
To all the folks who think this might “simply” be a “mistake”, what will be done if it was?
A bunch of armed rebels shot down a civilian airliner, killing hundreds of innocent people - are they going to be dragged into court and tried for their crimes? Which court will try them, and under which laws? Will it be a civilian trial, or a military one?
Is this grounds for Malaysia to take military action against the rebels? Would retaliatory strikes be legal or condoned?
Pretty sure nothing will come of it besides stern speeches and scowls. I’m not sure if you know were Malaysia is, but they lack the capabilities to do a retaliatory strike, unless they had help.
eh?
Perhaps Russia needs to drag Igor Strelkov over to the Krem and have a word.
I did read a news source earlier stating that Russia had moved surface to air missile assets into the area. Another (The Guardian) says the rebels captured some Buk systems.
At best, idiot rebels with a new toy. At worst, Russia provided the assets and instructions, and potentially instructors.
There’s a war going on in Iran?
I’m quite aware of Malaysia’s location, and I’m also aware that they possess an at least reasonably modern (if somewhat small) airforce. All they’d really need is base access somewhere within the operational range of their aircraft - or even just an aircraft carrier in the Black Sea.
It should also be noted that the United States is Malaysia’s closest current ally, and that the US has military bases all around the world.
Pretty quick way to get rid of their somewhat small air force and achieving nothing, in an empty revenge gesture.
Why even bothing replying to a post if you’re not going to address any of the questions or points made in it, and instead are just going to parrot the same thing everyone else has said several times already?
War kills people. War kills innocent people who have nothing to do with it. People trying to act without complete information, or with wrong information, do end up killing civilians, and killing their own soldiers, regardless of their intent.
This is why the Nuremburg trials considered aggressive war the worst of all war crimes and the source of all the others.
We should blame the politicians responsible for war. Of course, in this case, it’s hard to tell who is responsible for it. We shouldn’t necessarily blame the other people sucked into war. We know that several accidental shoot-downs have occured before, why should we assume a deliberate one this time?
Or they could, ya know, destroy the SAM sites? Or at the very least knock out the radar systems? Exactly the sort of thing that the US did in the Gulf War and the UN did in the Kosovo War, establishing air superiority with little to no losses?
Why, exactly, would you expect the rebels to be at all capable of annihilating the Malaysian air forces? If we honestly believe they were inept enough to shoot down a civilian airliner by mistake, how can we put any stock in their being competant enough to shoot down actual military fighters and bombers that are actively seeking to destroy them first?
Under the ICAO’s Annex 13 SARP, the state that manufactured/designed the airframe (it was a Boeing 777, so the US here), the state the operator was based in (Malaysia obviously) have the right to appoint a representative to the crash investigation, and that representative must be given access to relevant evidence. This also applies to states who lost a national in the crash, which so far looks to also include France, the Netherlands and the UK. Since the black box is pretty damn relevant and Russia is an ICAO member, Russia is required to share it and it will be alienating a lot of countries it can’t afford to piss off if it tries to play cute.
Normally the state where the crash occurred is in charge of the investigation, but this one happened in disputed territory so just picking who gets to run the investigation is going to turn into a fraught political question.
