Malaysia blames quake on naked selfie tourists, some of whom now can't go home

[anon26940528]

@miasm

You what? You think it’s sanctimonious to question the underlying motivation of a bigot who uses their affronted sense of piety as an excuse to marginalise people through bigotry? Seems like, if anything, that’s anti-sanctimony.

No, that’s not what Fry is doing. Fry never addressed bigotry specifically. He’s saying that calling something offensive is a whine… while ironically completely missing how much he’s whining about it. It’s a context-less general-purpose argument of the most lazy kind. Anyone who is offended is wrong, regardless of how or why. All the while, the argument is about taking offense to other’s offense. So I guess it’s okay to take offense when it is something that offends me, but not something that offends you. It’s a categorically unrigorous and indefensible philosophy. You’re conflating your outrage about something else with Fry’s general and sanctimonious spiel on the topic of sanctimony.

It’s not witty, it’s not smart, and it’s not a great rebuttal to any of the twenty-million other articles on the net where I see it linked. Or are you one of those people who thinks that if it’s said in Received Pronunciation, it must be true?

[miasm]

Some context for you. His opinion is far more nuanced than you give him credit for.

I saw hate in a graveyard - Stephen Fry

and

I am a lover of truth, a worshipper of freedom, a celebrant at the altar of language and purity and tolerance. That is my religion, and every day I am sorely, grossly, heinously and deeply offended, wounded, mortified and injured by a thousand different blasphemies against it. When the fundamental canons of truth, honesty, compassion and decency are hourly assaulted by fatuous bishops, pompous, illiberal and ignorant priests, politicians and prelates, sanctimonious censors, self-appointed moralists and busy-bodies, what recourse of ancient laws have I? None whatever. Nor would I ask for any. For unlike these blistering imbeciles my belief in my religion is strong and I know that lies will always fail and indecency and intolerance will always perish.
“Trefusis Blasphemes” radio broadcast, as published in Paperweight (1993)

Focusing on his accent (it’s not received pronunciation) may be something you are doing for the sake of argument, but I would ask you to instead do some research into his background. The bigotry and hatred he draws experience from and which he criticises, the educated, cogent, impassioned and erudite fashion in which he constructs his criticism.

I would encourage you to listen to the following debate, which captures some of his criticism.

- YouTube

That’s the 2 hour version, for some reason it doesn’t appear on the IQ2 official channel (or at least I can’t find it). Here’s a shorter version if you don’t want to spend a gripping and interesting two hours watching the full debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwP4C5hjo4Y

Your circular argument notwithstanding, he is not merely criticising religiously motivated people taking offence, he is criticising their belief that their taking offence in some way affords them the right to intercede in other people’s lives. Which they routinely do.

Of course, no true religious person ever treated anyone else unfairly, never attacked any people, physically or verbally, never perpetuated racism and homophobia and bigotry, so I must admit I’m obviously confused and fighting against my own delusions. No true religious person was ever bigoted, so what am I really to argue against?

[redesigned]

@JonS

No, one of the vatican priests professional tour guides trained to deal with tourists to the location was there, noticed it after they were already posing, told them to stop, and was told to STFU

fify.

@smut_clyde

If the Sabah authorities are worried about touristic disrespect to the sacred mountain, the answer is in their hands… Stop. Tourists. Climbing. Sacred. Mountain.

but…then they won’t make money selling out their own sacred site which isn’t disrespectful apparently.
i agree, if this is a holy site, the answer is to either not sell tours or to better educate tour members or to loosen up about what happens in the place you’ve sold tours to. i say this not to excuse any specific behavior, but rather to point out the obvious that whenever you bring the public through on tours it is inevitable to have the full spectrum of visitor types, that is the very nature of selling tours to the public.

@HubrisSonic

I am not saying disrespecting religion is racist. I am saying when you don’t disrespect religions or cultures in your own country, but do so in a generally brown skinned country as a white person, I feel perfectly free to say it is racist.

yes ~if~ that were the case it would be…but MORE likely if these people were disrespectful jerks, they would be disrespectful jerks anywhere, and assuming that they are only being disrespectful because of peoples skin color is itself racist.

@Thrown

Joseph Pairin Kitingan was speaking in his capacity as Huguan Siou, or “Paramount Leader” of the Kadazan-Dusun people who revere Mount Kinabalu.

Good point. This same issue happens all over the world. When religious people hold government office and make public statements that reflect their religious beliefs but are inappropriate statements for someone in their official governmental role. Obviously they have a right to their personal beliefs, it is the bleed over that causes controversy and confusion, whether in malaysia or texas.

[dragonchild12]

@redesigned

if this is a holy site, the answer is to either not sell tours or to better educate tour members or to loosen up about what happens in the place you’ve sold tours

I agree, white westerners are obviously completely uneducated on how to act like decent human beings, and it takes long lectures for them to be told to behave with the barest of human decency, and as such they shouldn’t be expected to act with the barest minimum of thought towards others ever.

That is what you’re saying, right? Because I can’t figure out how the fuck “better education” would have helped here, unless you expect tour guides to try to teach basic human decency.

[nocleverhandle]

They have the right to be offended; they do not have the right o kidnap people over it. Blasphemy laws are an evil thing, and it is an evil thing to respect such laws. Canada should assist them in leaving the country immediately.

[nocleverhandle]

No government has the right to punish a person for blasphemy, because it is not a crime under any remotely reasonable theory of justice. Laws against blasphemy are fundamentally and universally evil – they are, without exception, a tool for governments to rob, kidnap, and murder anyone perceived as an outsider.

[redesigned]

@dragonchild12

I agree, white westerners are obviously completely uneducated on how to act like decent human beings, and it takes long lectures for them to be told to behave with the barest of human decency, and as such they shouldn’t be expected to act with the barest minimum of thought towards others ever.

That is what you’re saying, right? Because I can’t figure out how the fuck “better education” would have helped here, unless you expect tour guides to try to teach basic human decency.

Woah! Holy crap NO!!! That isn’t even remotely close to what I’m saying. yikes! i don’t even know what to make of that…

I’m saying when you open anything up to the public you inevitably get the full spectrum of people.
The only way to completely prevent this is to not sell public tours.

One way to minimize the impact of this is to better educate guidelines of acceptable behavior and consequences for non-compliance, since foreign tourists might have very different ideas about what is acceptable. While better education won’t eliminate the issue, only non-access could do that, it will reduce the issue, which should be obvious and is a very sane and reasonable idea and suggestion. If people are uptight about other peoples behavior at a certain site for any reason, and they are selling access to that site, then the onus fall on them to inform what constitutes compliance and what the consequences are for non compliance, this is just common sense and basic logic. I’m not saying anything that wouldn’t be obvious to anyone.

Selling access to tourists, then acting crazy when they inevitably end up with a bad tourist, is at the very best thick headed. If they sell access to a sacred site for money, then some reasonable precautions and preventative measures are prudent. right?

@dragonchild12

unless you expect tour guides to try to teach basic human decency

much of what you consider decent isn’t universal. is burping after a meal rude or the required polite compliment? is spitting into a bowl for your guests to drink rude or proper manners? while there are universal basic human rights that most people agree on and should be guaranteed, decency is not something that is universally agreed upon and is social conditioning.

The specific actions that are considered polite or rude vary dramatically by place, time, and context. Differences in social role, gender, social class, religion, and cultural identity may all affect the appropriateness of a given behavior. Consequently, a behavior that is considered perfectly acceptable by one group of people may be considered clearly rude by another.

[miasm]

I think you must be responding to this:

@miasm

Further, I don’t believe anyone here has questioned the governments authority to use their being affronted at people disrespecting their culture to charge them with such and meter out a justifiable punishment.

And I agree with your appraisal of such laws, but they are at least understandable and probably share some of the phase space with laws which forbid inciting hatred against people of a specific religion. That would still be a far reach from accusing people of being responsible for causing natural disasters and, by extension, the deaths resulting from those disasters.

(and I would add, I think a justifiable punishment would be: please don’t come back here.)

[nocleverhandle]

There are plenty of countries where being gay offends ‘local beliefs’. Do you believe that those countries have the right to kidnap tourists who happen to be gay?

[nocleverhandle]

I’m quite good at offending religious sensibilities in my own country.

[popobawa4u]

@dragonchild12

That is what you’re saying, right? Because I can’t figure out how the fuck “better education” would have helped here, unless you expect tour guides to try to teach basic human decency.

Since cultures have their own standards of decency, assuming decency to be universal is certainly going to annoy some people as being ethnocentric - even if this isn’t your intention.

[aeon]

No government should have the right to punish a person for blasphemy.

FTFY.

It’s seriously unwise to bank on the veracity of the original statement outside the borders of your own nation …

[clintcarlson77]

This week on Who Needs a Scapegoat the LGBT crew get a week off as we focus on naked people causing an earthquake on top of a mountain angering the gods. Don’t rest too easily LGBT people because there’s a hurricane brewing and if it hits landmass by next week we can rest assured someone somewhere will be convinced it’s all your fault.

[HubrisSonic]

@HubrisSonic

they are only being disrespectful because of peoples skin color is itself racist.

No, it’s really not.

[Thrown]

Kitingan was elected to both posts. He has a responsibility to Sabah state, his political party and the Kadazan-Dusun people.

In any case, the sum effect of his statement on the prosecution of the climbers is zero. They will be charged for public indecency.

Here’s the Guardian, if you don’t believe us:

Are The Naked Backpackers Being Charged With Causing An Earthquake?

And this will likely be the outcome:

6 Men, Including Singaporean, Given A Month’s Jail Each By Malaysian Court Over ‘Nude Games’