Why they changed it, I can’t say. People just liked it better that way.
7 Likes
As I’m sure you’ve been told by now, it comes from the song Istanbul (Not Constantinople) which originated way back in the early 1950s with a recording by the Four Lads, but I think most people are more familiar with the version by They Might Be Giants. It’s one of those songs that’s been covered by an amazing range of singers and groups, in a wide variety of styles.
I recently ran across Istanbul pas Constantinople recorded by Ayhan Sicimoğlu, which I think is a simply amazing version of it, especially with lyrics in French, Spanish, and English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFZzuoqq9hc
I actually paused a bit before posting about this, especially in a thread about an active … war zone? Coup? What hell do we even call this right now? Then, as I was letting that video play in the background while I collected my thoughts, she got to the English portion, which is mostly spoken … and … yeah, that kind of hit me hard.
I’ll share that, for sure.
From the start of this mess, I’ve been wondering about the position of the Gray Wolves, and fearing they could add fuel to the fire. At least they didn’t manage to stir more shit.
i feel sorry for the people that hoped the coup would succeed
NOT
what is with America fascination with Coup removing Islamist ?
IT NEVER BECOME BETTER
The people behind the Coup try to be more Islamist than the Islamist to show they are not against Islam
A recent example is Egypt , the cases for Anti-Islamic cases and human right abuse went through the roof
ITS NEVER A GOOD IDEA
So it wasn’t kemalists, then?
It’s probably cold-war “good memories” of nationalistic pseudo-communist dictators (like one Saddam Hussein) getting rid of pesky imams with ideologies that could challenge their power. Unfortunately, “the west” got so good at discrediting “godless” regimes, there are none with any credibility left. Even Turkey and Israel became what they are today thanks in good part to Soviet influence actively fighting indigenous tribalistic cultures; but there ain’t any Soviet anymore, while “god bless America” shock-troops espousing hardcore Christian strains are unlikely to be credible when they talk about tolerance and equality.
The result is that even the most nationalistic dictator, these days, relies on religious figures for ideological legitimacy, like in the middle ages.
I too, find it fascinating how people who claim to love democracy, human rights, and other supposedly liberal values have no qualms about a coup in a country that by all accounts has a legitimately elected functioning goverment. Is it the most liberal and wonderful of all governments we’ve ever seen? No. But neither was the administration of George W. Bush, and I don’t recall people calling for a coup then. But hey, if you say “Islamist” people’s brains will fly right the fuck out of their skulls.
4 Likes
What’s wrong with Python… Some of the best of British culture if you ask me.
But the song comes up because we’re a bunch of boring gits is why!? 
1 Like
Did someone here say they agreed with the coup? I don’t think they did. No one here is an Erdogan fan, but neither do we think the coup will “fix” Turkey’s problems.
2 Likes
I don’t think the subsequent purge is going to help much either, mind.
2 Likes
There’s always the cynical view-- that the coup was a false flag designed to give pretext for Erdogan’s planned purges.
3 Likes
Totally agreed. The attempt has only further empowered him…
This gives a decent round up of what’s already unfolding.
In general, @forzaq8, most of us are in agreement that coups are bad things, and that American intervention has been nothing but a total disaster for the people of the middle east. But Erdogan hasn’t been great either.
2 Likes
Erdogan’s obsession with coups and the half-assedness of this coup makes this an attractive thought.
I’m going to apply hanlon’s razor on this one.
2 Likes
Oh, I like them a lot. It’s just that people feel strangely compelled to reference them at the slightest hint of an opportunity whether it makes sense in context or not. If you bring up hovercrafts, then there will always be that one guy asking if they are full of eels.
Sometimes people seem a bit desperate to prove their credentials as one of the one billion people most literate in nerd culture on the internet.
no. Not, by all accounts. By the accounts you’ve read. And probably by the models you’re using.
by some political models, the legitimacy of a elected government depends, in part, on how the opposition is treated. And there are worrying signs.
1 Like
It’s how we find each other. 
4 Likes
A) Was it elected without irregularities at the ballot box?
B) Does the government function? (Versus say, Somalia.)
I never claimed it was perfect democracy or even non-authoritarian, or close to perfect in any way, but it’s a far cry from military interventions improving it.
1 Like
The legitimacy of democracy depends in part on the summation of local knowledge. But since I’m not a Turk, and not a member of Turkish society, it’s presumptuous of me to comment either way.
3 Likes
Irregularities occur at our ballot boxes right here, too. The issue is more often whether they’re substantive enough to alter the results. As you say, it’s an issue of whether Erdogan is widely supported, which is why I’m generally okay with believing FP or MEQ or other sources when they say that Erdogan is generally supported by a majority of the population. I don’t think that’s in dispute by anyone. There is a lot of asterisking about whether it’s intimidation or media monopolization or a simple lack of viable alternatives, but it’s not like even his critics claim he’s unpopular.
Take this article for example:
http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/features/4-reasons-why-erdogan-is-still-popular_21411
Written by someone who’s hardly enamored of Erdogan, and if you check his Twitter feed, he’s been getting death threats from Erdgogan supporters. Here’s my problem: Coups are rarely if ever pretty.
At best, they’re bloodless coups like Musharraf in Pakistan that result in instability and economic insecurity, and represent a persistent threat to democracy in themselves. Musharraf voluntarily stepped down as Pakistan’s leader but the result hardly assures anyone that the people are in charge of the military instead of the other way around. My mother was living in Chile in 1973 when Pinochet took power in a CIA sponsored coup. The socialist president, Salvador Allende may have become less popular over the course of his presidency, but the alternative was a literal dictator. My own grandfather was arrested and thrown in jail, to be released later through coincidental family connections with the military. My grandmother had to flee the country. Pinochet was later accused of human rights abuses and it was only the fecklessness of the international justice system that let him die a free man.
How coups are an improvement on unpopular or authoritarian governments is something I don’t see. At best you’re getting a government that is forever subject to the whims of a praetorian military (which renders suspect any claims that a military junta exists solely to “restore democracy”). In the meantime all you get is violence, martial law, suspensions of rights, and real actual individual people suffer. But outside observers are all too happy to clasp their hands together and get dewey-eyed because the coup supposedly represents “our side” for various dubious values of “our side.” I have a real problem with that kind of short-sighted thinking. I don’t think it’s presumptuous of me to make that observation.
4 Likes
