So, technically correct? I don’t think that’s going to matter much to the optics of this case, and the vaccine debate is all optics, all the time. I’m 100% clear on where I stand on the vaccination issue, I think every child should be vaccinated. I think there are probably appropriate and effective penalties for non-vaccination but don’t think jail time is going to win. This isn’t a “punch fascists” situation.
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Hopefully dad will have a chance to get the child vaccinated while mom is in jail.
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As strong as I am in favor of bodily autonomy, I draw the line at parents refusing vaccinations and medical care for their children.
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Everything is a what-if as far is individuals are concerned.
Why should the state limit the freedom of corporations to dump waste products in the air and water? No one is fully safeguarded from cancer. Comprising businesses’ autonomy in a what-if situation is wrong.
Why should the state limit the access of individuals to firearms? No one is fully safeguarded from violence. Comprising individual liberty in a what-if situation is wrong.
Etc. etc.
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Did you have some sort of point that you’re trying to make?
And how do you enforce that line that you’ve drawn?
No, we’ve done mandatory vaccinations in the past, and they work extremely well. Also, the autonomy argument doesn’t really work, because these are children. Parents make children get vaccinated when they don’t want to all the time, and no one has any issue with that, because we all understand that children are not always capable of making critical decisions about their own health. It’s usually considered a given that small children can’t make autonomous decisions about their medical treatment, diet, and exercise (I sure as hell didn’t want to eat all that broccoli at the time, and nor did I want to “go play outside” in all cases).
This is about mandating what parents have to do with their children. Again, we do this anyway. For example, we mandate that all children must have a certain level of education. Generally speaking, it’s also illegal for parents to fail to treat their children if they have a serious illness. If we’re comfortable insisting that children get education, and medical care for immediate health issues, regardless of how the parent feels, why is it not okay to also mandate parents protect their children against potentially deadly illnesses? Even if the child winds up okay, not vaccinating is medical neglect that could be fatal if the child is unlucky. That alone should be enough for it to be mandated. The fact that it can also have dramatic consequences for public health in general is just icing on the cake.
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I’ll put it like this: Some people don’t seem to accept statistical arguments as valid or meaningful.
If the argument is: “Action A will result in a 2% increase in cancer incidence.” they reply: “But from the point of view of any individual, that is meaningless, because you can never establish a link between A and cancer in any given case.”
If the argument is: Group X has about a 10% greater statistical prevalence of (whatever… baldness) than group Y." they reply “But that’s no reason to give any extra anti-balding treatment to group X because you will still get many non-balding individuals in group X.”
I feel like this is such case and I’m trying to wrap my head around it. Which is why I’m pointing out why I think your argument about bodily autonomy isn’t really consistent in hopes that it will tease out more info from you.
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I denounce and refuse to associate with those who do not immunize their children.
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There are better ways to promote vaccinations. Keep them easy to get and promote them via social and public health campaigns. Some countries offer financial incentives.
We have enough parents incarcerated in this country. 7 days is long enough to lose a job. Is it worth it?
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Today, I’m finding myself on the defensive because I said that I wouldn’t support jail time for parents who don’t want to vaccinate.
I’m a strong supporter of vaccinations, but am now apparently a stand in for anti-vaxxers in this thread.
No thanks, I won’t be responding to anyone else.
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Not explicitly, but you your statement was framed that the child was FORCED vaccinations, vs the other option that the child was PREVENTED vaccinations. I suppose which side of the vaccination camp you are depends if you view it as force or prevented. But as far as body autonomy, a 1 year old really has none when it comes to cases like this. The parents do.
Fair enough that it may have been heavy handed. But I do believe not vaccinating a child can have dire consequences. I am concerned the child is vaccinated, not the mother punished. And note, the punishment was for refusing a court order. This would be the same if it was something else like denying visitation or taking a child out of state with out permission, etc. It isn’t just because of a lack of vaccination.
In this case, it is less the state’s choice per se, and more the state siding with the other parent. Again, I wouldn’t just give the state carte blanche on all matters, but in this instance I believe they acted in the best interest of the child.
I concede I am projecting due to knowing people in situations where fathers rights are completely overlooked in family courts. I think not vaccinating your kid shows a serious lack of judgment. Though she may be fit in all other aspects.
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If it saves someone’s life it might be…
I’m all for soft nudging and positive incentives first. But what do you do when a concerted anti-vaxx campaign gets the population immunity below the critical threshold and you start getting epidemics of previously nearly eradicated diseases, with fatal consequences for children both deliberately unvaccinated and medically unable to receive a vaccine? (As has apparently already happened in some places?)
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Perhaps you could explain what you expect the judge to do. As the name suggests, a court order is an order from the court for a person or an entity to comply with a directive, the defiance of which is penalized with jail time.
This isn’t a “punch fascists” situation.
You’re right! It’s a Kim Davis situation. This woman is in jail of her own volition.
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Yep. We tried the soft approach and it was wildly successful for many decades until that fucking monster Wakefield knowingly lied to push his agenda. Now it’s long past time to use the stick as well as the carrot.
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I’m strongly against unnecessary incarceration, but I am pretty confident that if antivaxxers and minor drug offenders switched places vis a vis incarceration, it would probably be better for the world than the present situation.
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I presume you drive with no seat belt because they don’t prevent death or injury in all crashes? Forcing you to have a strap across you is surely compromising your “autonomy”? And how about those repressive motorcycle helmet laws?
My hearing was “compromised” as a result of childhood measles, and anybody failing to vaccinate their children makes me seriously angry. Your autonomy is pretty compromised if you suffer hearing loss, blindness or other brain damage as a result of diseases which are largely preventable by vaccination.
“Positive social campaigns” are not fully effective even with HIV, still less so when many parents have no idea of the black swan aspect of quite common infections. (For instance, even if an influenza vaccination is only 50% effective, that is many fewer deaths every year).
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I didn’t see anything that said…what vaccinations did she refuse to have done? We talking measles and HPV or the Flu shot here?
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Several here are arguing for exactly that.
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Eh… I think it should potentially be jailable. If the situation gets so serious that drastic actions are required to re-establish the necessary level of immunization, I think it’s a legitimate form or coercion. Ultima ratio.
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