I don’t know why exactly, but for some reason twitter ,together with (youtube) comment setcions, seems to make the world a worse place.
I think people just have not evolved to handle global communication without limits.
I used think the advent of the internet would let everybody talk with everybody (that part sort of came true) and that this would be a boon for worldwide understanding (that part turned out to be a grave mistake).
Totally fair. That’s why I’m all for making an attempt to separate art from artist. If knowledge of the artist recontextualizes the work in a way that is problematic for you then fine, feel free to step away. Where I draw the line is paying for a work when an artist is actively engaging in objectionable activity. Orson Scott Card for instance has been actively campaigning against same sex marriage so he’s not going to get my money.
The problem is, people who CURRENTLY exhibit worse racism and sexism than the best of our ancestors 100 years ago. Retrograde movement over time with regard to prejudice is not good.
Well…
Let’s take Hitler off the table. I mean, I have seen some of his work, it’s ok. It isn’t anything special artistic merit wise. I guess one can say, “Huh, guess that’s an ok painting.” and move on. The art isn’t anywhere near anything special enough to overcome his crimes against humanity.
Jared ISN’T a violinist. But he was a spokesperson for a brand. Should we shun that brand now? No. They broke ties with this guy 110% when the news broke. Which is a pretty similar analogy with Minecraft and Microsoft. Enjoy Minecraft, don’t read Notch’s Twitter (Just stay off Twitter, period.)
But, there ARE examples of famous artists who more than likely engaged in sex with people we would consider as “under aged” today. The Renaissance is full of painters who lead larger than life lives, and frequented prostitutes consisting of young women and men. Behavior that if exposed today would get them completely shunned. So should we hide these works because of this? I would say no.
The final example is Cosby. I think @anon50609448 had a really good comment about it above. Cosby was a huge influence in promoting black comics and actors during a time when they were highly marginalized. He was able to insert himself in to pop (white) culture like few other people before. As a comic he was groundbreaking and highly influential. His TV and Movie works like Fat Albert, Picture Pages, The Cosby Show, and Ghost Dad, etc were positive role models and gave representation on a mass scale to African-Americans. It wasn’t just a “black sitcom”, it was the #1 show on TV for 5 years. So I think if you look at it in the context of overall importance and influence on culture, there would be a hole in the story if you just got rid of all of his works. (As @anon50609448 said, I am just repeating their point.)
So, yeah, I can agree there are hard limits for people. But it is nigh impossible to be consistent, because the further back in time you go, the more horrible people when viewed with modern standards.
Frankie Boyle just had a joke about Michael Jackson that had me laughing for days (though I imagine some people would feel it made light of child abuse, so be forewarned if you don’t know Boyle’s work that he’s about the most harsh comedian on the planet [though this one is pretty tame to some of his jokes calling out racism]):
Remember when “Bad” came out, and people said, “Well, I guess ‘bad’ means ‘good’.” It turns out it didn’t.
Has he stopped telling transphobic jokes and given a real apology yet? 8 years ago it had got to the point where I immediately stopped watching anything he was on because I expected him to punch down at the first opportunity he got.
I did see the Mock the Week where he is clearly upset about the all the Scotland jokes in the episode, so he does know how it feels to be on the receiving end.
And
I just want to point out that no one has called for that in this thread. My choice to stop watching the Cosby show has exactly the same effect as someone else’s choice not to watch because it’s a 40 year old sitcom and there is far better inclusive programming available and limited time to spend watching.
Cosby’s works will be archived as well as the fact that he was an unreptantant serial rapist. And that’s just fine.
OK, my language was clunky. For the most part no one is suggesting we get rid of media. Would “Appreciate rather than condemn” be better?
I mean, I agree I am not scrambling to re-watch old Cosby episodes. I would be more inclined to listen to a standup album. And while no one in general is suggesting we should “get rid” of works, there have been people suggest one SHOULDN’T enjoy these works (not necessarily on this thread.)
My feeling is that in 50 years the summary of Cosby will be about his groundbreaking work in TV, Film, and Comedy, and his sins a footnote. I mean there are many celebrities from the past century I never experienced alive, but know them from their works, and later might hear an interesting nugget of how horrible they were at times.
It’s nearly 80 years since Eric Gill died, and he is still a controversial figure.
I’ve heard it said before, “Never meet your hero.” That applies for just abut anything: movie stars, athletes, authors, you name it.
I’ve never heard of this person. I think one’s “importance” is proportional with what is forgivable, perhaps. Of course abusing your own daughter might be bridge too far.
I dunno - I agree there are lines, it’s just impossible to have hard lines and be consistent, IMO.
He’s probably most famous for this, for those who didn’t know about the incest/rape/bestiality.
I think acknowledge is a nice middle ground. Appreciation and condemn are really either or qualifiers, while acknowledgement doesn’t require one to agree or disagree.
Hard to say. Cosby got away with drugging and raping over 60 women. Those numbers, along with the timing of his court case really move him beyond the territory of garden-variety “horrible celebrity”, and into the company of men like Harvey Weinstein.
I would argue that he secured himself a historical note in the feminist #metoo movement. I don’t think what he did will be quickly forgotten.
I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve only started paying attention to Boyle’s comedy in the last year or two, and I see performances that are consistently aimed at people with power for how they treat people without it and otherwise fuck up the world. It’s disappointing that Boyle has also been the one using a loud speaker to punch down.
I just did a little research and saw a joke from 2018 where Boyle got some flak for using an offensive term and was a disappointed to see that when it was called out Boyle got defensive rather than just acknowledging the mistake. Not that I would have actually expected to find one, but I seriously doubt there is an apology.
Every day is heterosexual pride day.
Well stated.
Just to support and emphasize your point:
And Ministry says Every Day is Halloween. I dunno, maybe just say fuck it, and let every day be LGBTQ+ Day, as it should be.
…at Outback Steakhouse!
I have given up hiding and started to fight
I have started to fight
Every day is Halloween could pretty much be a gay pride anthem.
(Come on, reality, don’t let it be the case that Al Jourgensen hasn’t made a bunch of homophobic comments…)
ETA: Just googled “Al Jourgensen Homophobia” and got the quotation, “If you haven’t sucked a dick before you are really missing out” I think my original statement is pretty safe.
