MoveOn tells Sanders to move on

It’s a LAYER. It’s a stupid LARP that we’re all forced to play. It’s like joining a game of Monopoly where somebody already has all the properties.

I’m working on the layer underneath. That’s where I can actually solve things.

I keep meaning to go back and dig through Cow’s old posts. He had a lot of infographics about the importance of ejecting a Democrat, any Democrat, and the regressive steps every time the GOP get back in.

(still supporting Green where it doesn’t matter, though).

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I honestly do not understand. You say your vote is so inconsequential that working on a meta layer is where you’ll “actually solve things”. How does that make sense? Unless you’re a Republican or Libertarian megastar in Hollywood, or something like that.

And how does one inconsequential vote for an alternate candidate solve anything?

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Having actually lived through some of those times, I totally agree with the Cow on that. Can you say John Anderson…oops, I mean President Reagan?

(P.S. To no one’s surprise, I’m out of likes.)

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Heh.

Here’s one from a few years ago. And I see he was arguing with @William_Holz

@Cowicide - hope you don’t mind me digging this up - appreciate that this might not be the time you want to be thinking about voting for Clinton…

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Well, there aren’t many solutions in national politics because there’s a fundamental flaw in expecting everyone to agree based on their geographic location and where they fell in a birth nation lottery. If you want to create a civilization, it needs to be something people choose to join and something that’s very easy to leave. (unless you have other ideas, but I think that’s pretty solid)

Really super-roughly…create a Mondragon/Valve/Google/Charter city hybrid that uses principled hiring to gather people up under the condition that they raise the bar to a basic level (respecting consent, not ruining other people’s days, that sort of thing). Then provide them housing and turn campuses into charter cities that the people themselves control.

Use an open-source forking type structure to cover a person’s entire life (governance, housing, economics, etc.). Give people options, let them vote with their feet. The ones that people like grow, the ones they don’t shrink. Instead of one person imposing their will on everyone else with a generic idea that nobody is excited by and is a very low bar, people are forming groups based on what they like because we’re all different and change over the course of our lives.

Of course it’s more complicated than that (everything is complicated with people involved), but I’ve got a team and currently we’re at ‘absurdly overengineered’. It just needs to be good enough to put refugees in Skunkworks-type projects. And I’ve already got a team working on the VC pitch and putting the rest together.

Honestly, there aren’t any original ideas there. It’s a framework and the Venn diagram of overlapping ideas has already been implemented in various ways. This is just a different assembly of existing parts and falls very nicely into my comfort zone (business consulting on complex interactions was what I did before moving to Data Analytics after 9/11 turned my job from ‘let’s enable people to be awesome!’ to ‘let’s be more efficient so we can fire people!’)

THEN we use Citizen’s united for a very good cause.

Nation-based representational democracy will always create a miquetoast solution that traps everyone at a fairly low level because ‘if they’re not trying hard then why should I?’ there’s not much incentive for progress there.

I’d give my spleen for an infintesimal fraction of the resources that go to these elections, we only need enough to set up a couple of university-type campuses (with housing) to create our critical mass.

Seeing everyone put so much heart and resources into our political process honestly kind of ticks me off. There’s no way that the good guys will win because the advantage goes to the worst in us.

Edit: The last local convo on the subject is here…but something much, much better is in the works.

I already said I can’t vote, but there has been a lot of history of US presidents influencing UK politics. Why can’t I have someone closer to my beliefs pressurising David Cameron to not be as shit as he has been? I can’t see Hillary doing that, and Cameron has already expressed a strong dislike of Trump.

Also, while I couldn’t vote for Bernie, I did vote for his brother (Who is currently Health Spokesperson for the Green Party of England and Wales )in the 2005 UK General Election.

So, no I can’t vote, but it’s more than academic for me.

I’m not saying don’t vote Hillary, I’m saying she needs to do a lot more to win votes than saying “vote for me or Trump wins”. I would rather see anyone other than Trump as president, but the way things are going Hillary is going to lose. She is pushing the independent left away.

Maybe the only way out of this mess is for Hillary to have Bernie as her running mate.

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Not a problem and certainly worthwhile to have a voice in the debate.

I would not agree with that sentiment and neither do recent polls. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/10/donald-trumps-polling-surge-has-faltered-and-democrats-havent-even-united/

Trump is not going to have an easy time and will likely lose moderates to Clinton. I am not a Clinton enthusiast, but I find the narrative of the Sanders supported to come from a bit of a bubble. Clinton is saying a lot more than “vote for me or Trump wins” and from my non-partisan position it sounds very similar to what Sanders says. As I have said before, I think Sanders is just a different mix of centrist and left-center policies than Clinton. Depending on which issue you most identify with you could end up counting one or the other as more progressive. Seriously. I think the biggest difference is that one is the establishment and one is not actually a member of the Democratic party.

Let us know how you’re going to sidestep it all.

Yeah, Galt’s Gulches haven’t worked out too well. They tend to end in everyone getting fleeced by the organizers and having persons beg the State to pursue.

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Yeah, not much of a parallel there. Even the first layer is kind of the opposite, and for good reason I think. That’s not evidence based and humble, that’s an arrogant fever dream. How’d you get there from Mondragon, the world’s largest worker cooperative?

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TBH I haven’t heard it if before but assumed from the techbro libertarians in charge at Google you were going in that direction. I’ll check it out.

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Yeah, there are LOTS of bad examples out there!

Olivetti has some good working examples too, and there’s some good science over at peacefulsocieties.org (for small groups getting along well). Dunbar’s number is a major factor (we’re taking advantage of it instead of denying it exists).

You could maybe also look at it like The Venus Project, but with a mechanism to immediately add people and sayisfy demand and rather than one person’s idea, we’d use an open source like forking structure so people can customize their lives. The assumption is that better ideas will come along

It’s complicated, but the fundamentals are sound and we’re honestly pretty overengineered at this point considering it’s just a framework (deliberately)

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No problem! I appreciate it!

I will be voting for the weakest, corporatist wildebeest in the political Serengeti during the general election.

That’s obviously Hillary Clinton versus any Republican. Clinton will have fantastic weaknesses that our grassroots movements will pentest and exploit. It’s already happening as we speak.

Hell, the only reason we got this far with a leftist, socialist, Jew grandfather was due to getting a weaker corporatist like Obama in place as the setup.

Electing Hillary will further the destruction of the establishment, pro-corporatist Democratic party and that’s going to help foster many, life-saving, progressive advances in the coming years.

Those that are terribly upset that Bernie didn’t win and ready to give up perhaps haven’t been in this struggle for as long as I have.

We’ve taken down massive walls and are raiding the castle. The corporate news won’t report this. They think they stopped us and will report that the smoke is cleared and the battle is over.

While they’ve all been watching Bernie, the real movement slipped past their defenses, deciminated political ammo behind enemy lines and is ready for the real siege.

Stay tuned.

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I’m sure that the Mondragon Corporation is far from what Rand wanted in Galt’s Gulch.

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Also have a look at the John Lewis Partnership

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Egads, how’d I completely lose track of these guys? They were on the list four years ago!

Thanks for the reminder. Just goes to show there are a LOT of good examples to be found among 7 billion people. ‘Things went pretty well actually’ just doesn’t make the news.

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Yay! That’s great news. Which regional and local campaigns will be coordinating and continuing the work on the issues identified by the national campaign?

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All the usual, grassroots suspects except our numbers are massively larger due to all the increased outreach. This is partially thanks to the movements surrounding the Sanders campaign along with a huge boost via all the Occupy splinter groups that’ve continued to more efficiently organize and strengthen their influence and effectivness over the years.

It’s scores of groups across the nation and we’re supporting candidates all over the place all the way up to taking down DNC corporatists like Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

Mass, corporatist media is under very serious attack by entities such as The Young Turks with hundreds of millions of views and counting across their video network. There’s candidates getting support via that powerful force as we speak.

This is a bad time to be a corporatist lackey. The tools they use to keep average Americans befuddled, apathetic and uninvolved in our democratic process are being systematically destroyed.

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Thank you for your energy and example.

We’re in the process of relocating to the Seattle area this month and will be looking to connect with organizing work there, esp. preventing gender based violence, community-based FOSS and basic economic support for vulnerable communities.

There are two DSA groups though I haven’t been able to confirm meeting schedules.

Leads appreciated. It’s an exciting time.

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