Myers-Briggs personality test isn't actually based on science

I actually think Myers-Briggs is an interesting test. Of course it isn’t useful for concrete decision making like hiring or group formation. I don’t think there is a test, or will be a test, that is helpful that way. The nature of answering questions about one’s own personality alone is highly arbitrary. The test does try to control for that by re-asking questions in different ways to try and hone your answers but its obviously only somewhat effective. All that said, when my friends and I have used it, it seemed eerily accurate in describing each of us. I don’t think the test was designed to answer questions about relationships based on its results so using it that way is just silly. Though that of course doesn’t stop corporations, etc,. from doing so.

Jung was a genius, and I actually stopped reading the article when it stated “[b]ut the test was developed in the 1940s based off the untested theories of an outdated analytical psychologist named Carl Jung, and is now thoroughly disregarded by the psychology community.”

Jung was so much more than a psychologist and many of his theories were not exactly testable, which may be why some psychologists disregard them. But to say Jung’s ideas are “thoroughly disregarded by the psychology community” is like saying that about Freud (though I think Jung had a much better grasp of human personality than Freud ever did). These are the two greats upon whose foundations ALL of western psychology rest, so there’s that.

Okay, I managed to read further despite myself. I really had no idea there was a marketing machine behind the test and that it costs money to use it because when we’ve used it in the past it was free on the internet. That’s creepy and I don’t like it, but that doesn’t mean there’s nothing to the test. It all depends on what you’re using it for. As a general outline of personality types it has some use, but trying to apply those results to real world situations is highly suspect as I mentioned above. But I’d say that for any such psychological test, including the Five Factor test mentioned as superior:

“Apart from the introversion/extroversion aspect of the Myers-Briggs, the newer, empirically driven tests focus on entirely different categories. The Five Factor model measures people’s openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism — factors that do differ widely among people…”

These categories are no better than the Myers-Briggs categories, and to suggest that things like introversion/extroversion don’t vary widely among people is just silly. Ditto sensing/intuition, thinking/feeling and judging/perceiving. The idea isn’t to “pigeonhole” people as the OP suggests, but to gauge where on a spectrum one is, exactly the claims made for the Five Factor and other, undisclosed, supposedly superior tests. As I mentioned at first, I don’t think there exists, or will exist, a psychological test that is seriously useful for concrete applications. But that won’t stop psychologists from trying and of course favoring their results over earlier work.

I don’t trust anything that is marketed so heavily and costs a fortune to administer. That said, are we really supposed to forego the Myers-Briggs for a newer and just as useless alternative? Lets face it, HR and corporate types love to reduce people to factors pluggable into equations. The categories in the tests they use are largely irrelevant because its a garbage in/garbage out exercise when applied to real life decision making. Human psychology, hell, dog psychology, is too complex for these silly tests to show us more than the barest glimpse of insight into our inner workings. When used for that purpose Myers-Briggs can be insightful and interestingly fun. But lets not engage in the logical fallacy of thinking that because its flawed there is necessarily a better test that we can invent.

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Yeah, I’m not really a fan of Jung (or Freud, or any of those early guys with their somewhat fanciful approaches), but it’s weird to see an article referring to him as “a psychologist named Carl Jung” as if he was somehow obscure. For better or worse he’s pretty much one of those people like Einstein or Darwin that can be identified by last name alone and people know who you’re talking about.

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Yep. I actually like a lot of what Jung does largely because he focuses so much on culture and symbolism. If Freud was an ESTJ (extrovert, sensing, thinking, judging) Jung was a INFP (introvert, intuitive, feeling, perceiving) :).

I also dislike the way the OP writer clearly looks down his nose at the work of those untrained in psychology like Myers-Briggs. He takes cheap shots that don’t provide insight and rely on prestige/standing instead of argumentation. That said I don’t think he’s wrong that we should not be using this test for important decision making. Where I disagree is that he thinks there are better tests out there and I just think the whole enterprise is flawed for the purpose.

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The whole psychometric industry is built on the principle of looking for the lost key under the streetlight, because there’s more light there than in the dark alley where the key was actually lost.

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Yep, personality tests are meaningless and subjective validation is an actual cognitive bias. I guess if you want to arbitrarily label people, without actually getting to know them, you’ll have to rely on some other kind of pseudoscience. Might I recommend phrenology?

I test as INTP. Multiple times. I have read the description for INTP. In fact, I have read all the descriptions for all 16. There is little doubt that I am an INTP. Is it an exact 100% fit? No, I don’t score 100% Introvert, 100% iNtuition, 100% Thinking nor 100% Perceiving. I certainly AM an introvert. Most of the other INTPs that I know (there are a few mailing lists full of them…) are Introverts as well, with the others that consider themselves to be INTP would be a perfect 50/50 split of how extroverted/introverted they are, XNTP.

I don’t know how scientific it needs to be, it is self selecting. I certainly would not use any personality test for choosing an employee, nor would I use any personality test for performance achievements.

It sounds like a horoscope because you have a birthday that you didn’t choose. You certainly do choose your temperment. And I don’t think that anybody is striving to be the typical type archetype in any of the 16 temperments.

I do see it as a tool for showing how different people think, especially on team building.

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You’re assuming, contrary to all evidence, that Tyrell was acting forthrightly, with honest and transparent motives. Rachael (and Deckard(?)) couldn’t believe themselves to be human if they had REPLICANT stamped on their foreheads.

That was a narrative necessity to make the story work but it still didn’t make any kind of logical sense.* Replicants were considered so dangerous that they weren’t even allowed on-planet, yet escaped Replicants posing as humans was apparently a common enough occurrence to warrant its own special division in the LAPD.

So why wouldn’t the government legally require all manufacturers to clearly tag their products in such a way that you could recognize a Replicant without administering a special multiple-choice test? Even if some (like Tyrell) chose to break that law it would generally save a lot of hassle.

*(This is typical of Philip K. Dick stories, which often explore interesting themes relating to memory, humanity and identity at the expense of a believable plot.)

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The secret to comedy is not content. It’s… timing.

I always say, “ask me what the secret to comedy is.”

“What’s the secret to c—”

“Timing!”

I stole that from someone but I don’t remember who.

Perhaps Replicants, unlike reptiles, have the self-awareness and the resources to defeat non-psychological means of identifying them. You know, buy new eyeballs, alter your physical characteristics, whatever.

Yes, this is the point. It is most useful as a tool for introspection and realising that perhaps other people think differently. It’s a tool to make one more empathetic, especially in the context of a team, which from my experience it does well.

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I think Meyers-Briggs is important … when comparing Batman, Flipper, and Howard the Duck.

your mother :wink:

The movie seemed pretty clear that they couldn’t alter their underlying physiology, that was their whole dilemma. It also doesn’t explain why no one even made an effort to make Replicants easily identifiable.

Replicants were manufactured from scratch, so a manufacturer could easily

  • Add a distinct genetic marker that would show up on blood test
  • Implant an RFID chip in the middle of their brains
  • Give all replicants a distinctive visual trait, or even just make them look all the same so they would be easily recognized
  • Mark them with permanent tattoos/scars (as centuries of slaveholders have already done)
  • Just keep a well-maintained database of mug shots and fingerprints for all known replicant models

Even if some Replicants could find ways to defeat these measures that doesn’t mean there wouldn’t be any reason to try. After all, an escaped prisoner could take off his orange jumpsuit but we still make prisoners wear those jumpsuits all the same. And if the police suspect someone may be an escaped prisoner they don’t use a psychological test to find out, they check mug shots and fingerprints instead.

Again, I get why they made the movie/book the way they did: suspension of disbelief in the service of a story. Still silly from a logic point of view though.

Well, I assumed internal physiology would remain more complex and more difficult to alter than external appearance, but genetic signatures should be possible. Of course, DNA fingerprinting was pretty exotic stuff even during the OJ Simpson trial, and Blade Runner predates that by 12 years so I’m not sure it was on the horizon of many people then.

For me, the entire setting of Blade Runner is that the mega corporations had more power than all levels of government. They were free to ignore the law, because they were above it, exemplified by Tyrell flaunting Rachael in front of Deckard.

On topic - the MBTI has had problems for a long time.

i still remember being labeled the most extroverted of my high school class - based in part on these tests - primarily because i think best by speaking, but i’m still incredibly introveted by any normal usage of that word.
that the test fits some doesnt mean that the test fits all.
it maybe is a useful way to introduce the importance of personallity differences, but i suspect it probably tells us more about myers and briggs’ friends then it does about people and all their variation.

That’s ridiculous. People don’t have scales.

also the replicants have superhuman abilities, e.g. tolerance of extreme temperatures. you could just physically test for those even if the replicants file off their serial numbers.

it doesn’t hurt the movie that much though.