Nebraska governor signs executive order defining men as "bigger, stronger and faster"

I assume we’re eliminating club sports and banning private schools from competition in schools sports first, then? Because both of those are much stronger sources of systemic unfairness in sports.

On an individual level, we should also probably define objective limits for advantageous diversity, too. If you can run faster than 4.8 s in the 40 yd dash, you can’t compete in football. If you are taller than 6’2 you can’t play basketball. If you have a vertical leap greater then 24.5”, then you can’t play volleyball.

Is that where we’re going? Because all of that logically precedes restricting participation of trans people from sports.

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Came here for a 6M$M meme. Was not disappointed.

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Reminder that the greatest gymnast of all time is a women… You put Simone Biles up against ANY other person, regardless of gender, and she would destroy them all…

But sure… men have a natural advantage :roll_eyes: as if sports don’t involve training, determination, and skill, among other things that aren’t “natural”…

But that’s confusing the issue at hand, as the goal of this executive order is to push an ideology of the gender binary on Nebraskans. Gender is not as simple as what’s in your pants or the type of hormones you have… That’s just the actual science.

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I’ve met several women who are bigger, stringer, and faster than him.

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TBH the point of sports ought to be to share joy in the unique extremes of talent that humans develop when doing these EXTREMELY ARBITRARILY VALUED feats designed to showcase various human skillcaps for fun and money…

By which I mean to say what we value and how and why is something we can control thus sports can become whatever we want 'em to be.

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Kenan Thompson Reaction GIF by Saturday Night Live

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I’m not going to reply to any specific people because there have been too many comments flying around. I’m just going to bring up Caster Semenya. She was assigned female at birth. She identifies as a woman, and she always has. She has a condition which is probably within the large umbrella of intersex conditions but she has always identified as female. And she has naturally, for her, occurring higher than typical for a cis-woman testosterone levels. And she has been fighting for years to be allowed to compete. At one point, the international track and field organization tried to require her to take testosterone suppressing drugs, which were medically unnecessary for her, in order to be allowed to compete. Can anyone ever imagine any sports body treating a man this way? No, because it’s bullshit and it’s all about control.

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This!

Snl Queen GIF by Saturday Night Live

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You mentioned in a now hidden post that you mentioned the IOC to indicate you were talking about high-level, elite athletes.

Thinking about inclusion, I think it would be better if women like Rapinoe and others were able to compete for and be eligible for inclusion in the currently male leagues where their less-successful counterparts make at least 4x as much money as them…

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If trans women are so good at sports, why are there so few of them, worldwide?

I’ll save you the time. Because assholes keep treating them like second-class citizens, alienating and persecuting them constantly, whether they can play sports or not. People don’t even want them to play chess.

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I don’t want any systematic unfairness in anything, including sports. I’ve already mentioned my bias towards inclusion. Anything less elite than world-record performance territory, I don’t see any reason whatsoever to discriminate against trans participants, and of course myriad reasons why all people should be included and encouraged.

At the elite level, I don’t think I’ve learned enough to have an opinion on what, if any, restrictions there should be on competitors. In some way, elite athletes aren’t regular people. These are weirdos who, when polled, say they’d trade something like 5-10 years of lifespan to win a gold medal, if they had the chance. As athletes supported by their countries’ sporting associations, they’re already living in a highly-restricted regime (e.g. random drug testing even during training in the off-season). Doping is banned, so clearly hormones like testosterone do confer some sort of advantage in many cases at the pinnacle of performance. Thus it seems like it could be fair to set limits on something like hormone levels — even if naturally-occurring — to provide a robust, competitive, and fair field.

A blanket “trans women are women” doesn’t help much because I already know that’s true.

Whatever you say, Governor.

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Yet, you’re questioning if they are women, by saying that they are “different” than cis-women.

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Or maybe not.

After the Semenya case in 2009, the IAAF had convened a working group to advise on how to manage female athletes with elevated testosterone levels.

Among that group was Liz Ferris, a medical doctor and former Olympian, who was advocating on behalf of athletes. She sought the advice of Peter Sonksen, the lead author of this article. Coincidentally, he was part of a research team that was investigating the hormone profiles of female and male athletes.

This study measured hormone profiles, including testosterone, from a sample of 693 elite athletes across 15 sporting categories. There were many unexpected findings.

For example, 16.5% of men had a testosterone level below 8.4 nanomole per litre (the lower limit of the normal male reference range). Some were unmeasurably low. And 13.7% of the elite female athletes had a level higher than 2.7nmol/l, the upper limit of the normal reference range for women. Some were in the high male range.

Thus, there was a complete overlap of testosterone levels between male and female elite athletes. This challenged existing knowledge, which had assumed there was no such overlap.

Frustratingly for Ferris, the IAAF working group ignored this research. Instead, it proceeded to introduce its flawed – but now suspended – “hyperandrogenism” rule.

ETA: Article linked from article posted by @Mindysan33

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Look, this is very simple. If it comes up that women’s sports at some level are consistently dominated by trans women, then they could look into making a cis women’s league. (Not keeping them out of women’s, and the difference is important.) But despite all the handwringing and bans, it never has in any of them. The problem is purely hypothetical, and it’s not hard to see who invented the hypothetical and why.

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Also, see @danimagoo’s excellent comment on this topic.

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But that doesn’t actually have anything to do with trans people. It has to do with hormone levels right now. A history of high testosterone isn’t grounds for restriction for either men or women in elite sports.

And ultimately, those IOC rules are, IMO, wrong. They do not have the right to ban people from competition for their natural state. They were wrong to ban Caster Semenya from competition and make her take testosterone blockers to requalify for competition. And the European Court of Human Rights agrees with me.

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OK, so the only real example of a trans woman excelling at an elite level that I am aware of is Lia Thomas winning the 500 free at NCAA div 1 nationals. In field that historically underperformed. She won with the 15th fastest time in that meet’s history, almost (IIRC) 10 sec off the world record. Also, the other events she swam in, she did not dominate either. IMHO, this should really put the issue to bed.

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Narrator: It won’t.

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