I’m not concerned; the affair is over and nothing bad happened. Any danger is past, there is nothing left to be concerned about. I am merely suggesting that they behaved recklessly by interfering with a complicated system in which a thousand things could have gone wrong, malfunctioned, or been offline for maintenance that day. No one would dream of protesting nuclear power by walking in to the control room and trying to shut the reactor off; anyone could see that that would be far too dangerous and would endanger everything they sought to protect. Just because someone disagrees with you on the proper tactics for achieving a common goal (the protection of the environment) doesn’t mean that they are a dishonest troll. Grow up.
I suppose that if this action woke up a few people in the pipeline industry to awareness of potential vulnerabilities, it could be considered a good thing.
I didn’t assume they were Sioux to begin with. So there’s that.
I was addressing the second half of the post. “Ranchers are arming themselves before they climb onto tractors or see to their livestock”.
The bravest thing here is that hard hats fight to stay on that persons head.
As far as I know, the ELF never killed anyone. Caused millions in property damage for sure, but murder isn’t their goal.
I understand that. Anyone hurt or killed would be incidental. I know that they would have no good reason to attack my property or equipment, but that is assuming that they, or other groups, take the time to understand who I am and what my goals are. I am not entirely sure that that they always take their reasoning beyond "look, a bulldozer in the wilderness, lets kill it!"
We are pretty far out of the way, but this is Colorado. And the nearest real city is Santa Fe. When we are done with equipment for the day, we always lock it in a shed if possible, or at least park it out of sight. We are not worried about theft, but vandalism.
From what I know of the group, they have GONE OUT OF THEIR WAY to ensure no people were killed in their actions. This isn’t an excuse for them, rather an acknowledgement of the facts at hand.
Agree with their POV or not, I do think they have a deeper than you suggest. They find the environmental degradation to be a priority one issue that needs to be halted yesterday.
What they really need to do is to hack the accounts of all of the Oil barons and outright rob them of the money that they swindle out of the ignorant public; strip them of the power that they used to hold a grip on the populous so that they continue on this convenient, but deadly path of self enrichment.
Also, here’s the defense for their actions:
Oddly, we probably agree on environmental preservation, at least the basic principals of it. My Dad and I are super proactive about preserving old growth trees, and absolute cleanliness of rivers and forests. But there are plenty of people who lump ranchers together with oil companies and strip mining firms as ecological villains.
Our family is somewhat atypical. But a car full of hippies from Santa Fe who get lost looking for the pot dispensary might not know that. So we take sensible precautions to protect ourselves and our property.
It is important to read their own accounts of what motivates members of groups like Earth First!. Like many movements, the bleeding edge extremists are not always very rational people. What that means for us, is that we cannot always anticipate their actions.
It’s entirely true, however, that ranching can be incredibly rough on the environment in a number of ways. Whether or not they deserved to be lumped into the same category is another matter. I don’t think they should, but nor should we gloss over the damage ranching - especially large scale, corporate ranching, can cause to the local environment . Groups like the ELF take the extreme view and in some cases believe that human beings in civilization are inherently the problem.
I certainly understand precautions when it comes to protect ones livelihood and being angry about the methods employed by the extreme end of the environmental movement.
I hope people can understand that there is a big difference between what we do, and any sort of industrial agriculture. For one thing, we don’t make anything like a profit. The elk on our land probably outnumber cattle 10 to 1. Nobody in our little corner of the world has any sort of environmental damaging farming or ranching operation. The big money makers are fishing guide operations and the narrow gauge railroad.
I have to say that I am squarely on the side of those who oppose giant feed lot horrors, clear cutting, and endless spraying of poisons,and there are a very large number of us that feel that way. There is a lot of really nice wilderness out here that has been very well taken care of in private hands. This year, we had a small water pipe, which the state wanted to run through about a mile of our land. There was a lot of negotiation before they did the work, and my Dad was literally out there every day watching to make sure that they did only what was agreed to. If it had been a giant oil pipeline, we would not have been as agreeable.
There is a pretty strong sentiment up here that we really do not need the sage advice offered by urban know-it-alls. At least my generation can sort of bridge the gap between old school traditional ranching families and the back to the land hippies. My folks find the new age yurt dwelling types unfathomable. I generally find that I have a great deal in common with them.
Strawman again. You can make your point without using such caricaturized stereotypes. Statement withdrawn, see below.
We live straddling the border between Colorado and New Mexico. What passes for a town here has two pot dispensaries, and almost nothing else. Cars full of hippies from Santa Fe who get lost are a big part of what little traffic we have.They seem to want to take backroads back to New Mexico, as I guess the NM police are smart enough to watch US285 south. I guess I could say stoners, but they generally self identify as hippies. I don’t say it as a slur.
I see. I just thought that you lived in Japan these days.
Nope. I lived there as a kid, and later moved back when my kids were little. I still go there frequently for work. My mother’s family has been ranching here for several generations, and we spend about half of the year here, depending on the weather.
Alright then. I withdraw my previous statement.
No problem at all. I am sorry if I steered us off topic.
I’d hope so too.
I think there is a communications problems between environmental groups and people who lean more right who also believe in the wholeness of the earth. How that gap is bridged, I’m not sure, other than someone actively reaching out and making it. [quote=“Max_Blancke, post:32, topic:87255”]
There is a lot of really nice wilderness out here that has been very well taken care of in private hands.
No doubt. There is probably some land that is in private lands being exploited, which I’m sure you’re well aware of. [quote=“Max_Blancke, post:32, topic:87255”]
There is a pretty strong sentiment up here that we really do not need the sage advice offered by urban know-it-alls.
I honestly don’t think this is the core of the environmental movement, especially out west. The assumption that the people who count themselves as environmentalist are a bunch of urban dwellers who are useless hippies or know nothings probably doesn’t help you make real connections with them. I’d suspect that many of them have spent time in the wilderness and studied it. I’d also suspect many of them would want to work together. [quote=“Max_Blancke, post:32, topic:87255”]
I generally find that I have a great deal in common with them.
That’s great. I think if you want positive change, you have to actively reach out and make the changes you want in common. Being willing to compromise is a key part of that.
That being said, you do keep making some very stereotypical statements about hippies (as @bibliophile20 indicates with his comment below), who they are, and what they want. I’d suspect they probably stereotype you as well. Nothing positive will come out of that. If you want positive change that EVERYONE can live with (because those hippies are part of the area and community too and should have a say), then you have to (both) be willing to put your differences aside and figure out how to work together. A key to that is some active listening and some signaling on your part that you want to work together.
But, as an easterner and urban dweller, you can take or leave my POV.
I have to agree about the stereotype issue, on both sides. It probably has a great deal to do with the fact that it is the extremists who get noticed. Nobody pays much attention to ranchers who are great stewards of the land, because their property just looks like more wilderness. But you can’t ignore a giant cattle feedlot. Likewise with the environmental movement. it is the nutjobs that stand out. I guess it is that way with every movement. There will always be a fight to keep the extremists from hijacking the narrative and making the whole group look bad. I can definitely see potential for this in the pipeline protest.
I don’t dislike hippies. I guess when I talk about hippies, I really am talking about people who proudly conform to the stereotype, as far as wearing a lot of tie-die and batik, smoking large amounts of pot, and avoiding traditional barbers. If they are back to the land hippies, there is very likely a yurt or teepee involved. And usually, they are happy to trade goats milk or eggs for our free range organic beef. But I take your point, and will try to consider what I write here, and whether it furthers negative stereotypes.
It is starting to snow a little here, and we will also be back east in a few weeks.