Thanks for the clarification. I agree.
1 Like
It’s absolutely true that accepting a pardon when one hasn’t even been charged with a crime makes that person look guilty, but I’m sure Trump will spin it otherwise and his supporters will gobble it up.
I was amused to learn that he’s been going around the White House offering preemptive pardons to associates who don’t even want them for the reason you mention: they don’t think they’ve done anything that would require a pardon and they understand that accepting one would make them look bad even if they admitted to no crime.
2 Likes
I have no doubt that he would do just as you say. Not that any of it will be true or correct. I’ve got the popcorn ready for January 21st. Can’t wait to see what NY is going to give us for National Squirrel Appreciation day! http://www.holidays-and-observances.com/january-21.html
I hope Pence says; “I’d like to - but is it worth a billion dollars to you.”
7 Likes
He will, of course, spin any investigation as an “illegitimate presidential persecution” and insist it is proof of how illicit the Biden administration is, therefore pardoning himself is only for the “protection of the country.” Or something like that.
5 Likes
Generally, but in this case it would probably be accepted by the courts. To dismiss this, the court would have to either a) hold that Pence was not made acting president, which would require them to create a new standard for assessing the validity of a president’s use of amend XXV, section 3 ( especially unlikely as it would risk creating confusion in future situations and would contradict the plain meaning of the text); b) hold that the acting president cannot issue pardons, which also contradicts most case law and the plain meaning of the text; c) hold that the acting president cannot pardon the President, which, because there is no substantive difference between the pardon power of a president and acting president, would mean proposing a novel approach to the presidents Article II powers.
All of these seem extremely unlikely for any court to take, let alone this particular court.
1 Like
Technically, he doesn’t have to step down to get a pardon from Pence. The wording is a bit iffy, but Trump can have a belly ache, state that he feels he needs sedation, and therefore Pence is the temporary Acting President for a few hours. Only until Trump feels better, of course. But for those few hours, it’s perfectly legal for Pence to sign a pardon. And oh, look, here’s one all filled out already, just lying there on the Resolute desk. What a coincidence!
2 Likes
Well…
The judge in the Flynn case just warned the defending attorney’s that the “legal system” will be watching very closely for future pardons from 45 and assessing their validity. He hinted that a slew of last minute blanket pardons for un-named crimes may not be valid just because they were issued by the president. The judge implied that not any old reason is a valid to “just because you’re the president”.
The overall point being, when these pardons are made, they will be scrutinized to the most minute detail. 45 and his legal team have demonstrated time and again that their work cannot hold to scrutiny.
1 Like
One of the practical effects of a pardon is that few prosecutors will invest the time and resources to pursue a case against someone if there’s significant legal doubt as to whether they can even be prosecuted. So even a pardon of questionable legitimacy is a huge disincentive for prosecutors.
1 Like
I hear you, but we here in DC are actively bucking for him. The working people in the infrastructure have been fucked over by him so many times the incentive is built in.
Besides SDNY will hopefully do the heavy lifting. I’m not sure why 45 is so obsessed with pardons when they only apply to federal crimes. That seems to be a huge oversight in his strategy.
High on the drug: POWER, Trump takes another hit…
“So…maybe I’ll pardon MYSELF! Nobody ever thought of that before!”
(takes another POWER hit)
Pence: “What if you give me some of what you are smoking and let me Pardon you?”
Trump takes another hit of POWER…
“Yeah, maybe. When I’m done with this. Maybe, we’ll see. I’ll think about it”
(takes another POWER hit)
Pence: “What about now? Now would be a good time. C’mon man, let me have a taste”
Trump: “Oh yeah, it’s good. You’ve never had anything like this. Never. You should try this. Maybe in two weeks”
(takes another POWER hit)
Pence: “Two WEEKS? You’ve been saying that for years”
Trump: “Just need another hit….”
1 Like
Mike Flynn’s pardon is incredibly vague.
1 Like
sdny is a federal jurisdiction. Cryrus Vance (also mentioned in post presidential indictment talk) runs the Manhattan District. I think Trump believes that living in Florida will protect him.
You mean he gets a free pass AND gets to throw everyone else under the bus?
That definitely seems like a deal Trump would go for.
1 Like
After Pants pardons Tromp, who pardons Pants?
All this talk of Pence taking over for a short time or at the very end, reminds me of this:
4 Likes
I don’t see this happening. Trump will never willingly give up power, and why would he have Pence do something that he just thinks he can do, himself?
2 Likes
My first reaction is “That doesn’t seem likely, it’s so obviously and blatantly corrupt that even Trump would blush.” But then I thought about how OAN and Fox would spin it and it could work. They could be protecting the heroic and genius Trump from politically motivated Democratic attacks that simply want to discredit his many many achievements in office. I can already see the headlines. The Partisans will eat up anything he feeds them. It will probably improve his poll numbers overall. All he has to do is frame the lawsuits as unfair attacks from communists and he can do whatever he likes. Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
It reminds me of (strained) democracies where staying in office is motivated by the need to keep out of jail-- e,g. Israel.
Some states combine senatoriaal immunity with the office of “senator for life”
1 Like
What he said is that he would leave it up to the AG and DOJ to decide how to proceed, which is how it should be. The DOJ is supposed to be an apolitical entity, not the president’s special investigative arm. That being said he can and should appoint someone who is very motivated to investigate Trump.
8 Likes
