there are 18.8 million veterans in the us, and over a million active duty personnel.
so, no. this is on him.
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Don’t underestimate the power of yelling. Half a dozen people yelling at him to stop killing someone would be very powerful.
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Yet as a Marine, he was also trained for self-discipline. If he had done this to a foreign civilian in a theatre of war, he still would have been court martialed for murder.
Neely was not an enemy combatant.
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True, nobody yelled “stop.” But bystanders DID call police the second the train pulled into the station (cellphones don’t work in the tunnels between the stations), and the train conductor was made aware of it right away, too. By all accounts the train stopped once it was in the station and the conductor made announcements that the police had been called, and the train waited for help to arrive. And it only takes a minute or two for the train to get from 2nd Ave to Broadway/Lafayette (I ride that train regularly).
Every eyewitness account I’ve read from people who were actually riding in the train car (Kings and Grima arrived on the scene a few minutes after the train had already pulled into the station and Neely was already unconscious) suggests that bystanders genuinely thought Penny (with the assistance of two other passengers) was restraining Neely until professional help could come, not strangling him to death. I’ve seen more than one quoted as saying that they didn’t know Neely was dead until after the whole thing was over and Neely’s body had been taken away.
Maybe they were stupid for not realizing that Penny was applying a deadly chokehold. And yes, their conscious and unconscious biases about homeless, mentally ill Black men may very well have clouded their understanding of what was happening. But I believe that the vast majority of people on that subway car that day (with the possible exception of Penny himself) had absolutely no clue that they were witnessing a man die until he was already dead for some time.
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I guess BART passengers are more lucky in that regard.
Cell phone service works even underground.
Whoa there buddy, and back the fuck up; I didn’t say or even imply anything like that - you did.
I said they failed and they DID; whether it was out of ignorance, shock, or pure malice, it doesn’t matter.
The end result is the same.
Nobody spoke up and a man is dead, and everyone on that train-car gets to live with the reality that they just sat by and watched. That horrific memory gets to live in their minds rent free from now on…
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So - you’re arguing for a 2nd degree murder charge?
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You’re right. Better to let a man die than to say something and risk being inconvenienced. /s
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and … none of those places is even in the top 50
Most Dangerous Cities in the US
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I’ve lived in a city and used public transportation my whole life and this is a crock of shit. Sure, you keep your head down at a scuffle or some shouted words, a chokehold with three people holding someone down is a completely different matter. But even deeper than that we know it isn’t true, because there were 911 calls. There were calls when Neely was yelling and after Penny started his murder. Much like almost every case we attribute to the bystander effect, it just isn’t and serves to deflect blame from both the original perpetrators and the emergency responders who failed. From the time of the first 911 call at 2:26 to the arrival of the fire department at 2:46, 20 minutes elapsed.
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[quote=“Melizmatic, post:46, topic:248149”] I guess BART passengers are more lucky in that regard.
Cell phone service works even underground. [/quote]
Cell phones work in underground NYC subway stations, but not in most tunnels between stations (certainly not the one between 2nd Ave and Bway/Lafayette).
I hear you. I agree with you that (most of) the people who witnessed this will be questioning their failure to intervene for the rest of their lives. But your statement that they failed to act carried with it a strong implication that they should have acted. And I’m not convinced they deserve the guilt you are laying on them.
I wouldn’t be shocked if he was charged with 2nd degree murder. But proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he acted with “depraved indifference to human life” is a pretty high bar to a conviction, when he’s going to argue that he did it because he thought he was helping.
I think a manslaughter charge is more likely. 1st degree manslaughter would require them to prove that he intended to hurt Neely. Again, if he can convince a jury that he was trying to help, not hurt, this will be hard to prove. But not as hard as “depraved indifference.” 2nd degree manslaughter seems much easier to prove, as it just requires that the death resulted from Penny acting in a dangerous and reckless manner, and I would think (in my rather uninformed opinion) that a US Marine should know that a 15 minute chokehold is dangerous if the victim isn’t actively trying to hurt you.
The only way I can see him getting away with no charge is if evidence emerges that Neely really was attacking (or about to attack) someone. But there doesn’t seem to be anyone saying that’s what actually happened. All media accounts I’ve seen say Neely was shouting and making people deeply uncomfortable, but not physically threatening anyone.
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Just like if he shot at someone who was making too much noise and he died. He thought he was helping.
A choke hold and not letting go for 15 minutes or loosening your grip to check on the guy is the epitome of a cautious assault.
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You’re right. We’re all rugged individuals, with no responsibility for our fellow man. That ideology has served America well lo these last 40 years… We live in a wonderful paradise of milk and honey, just like Ronnie told us!!! /s
He had him in a chokehold, you don’t do that to people you’re trying to hug with kindness… why isn’t that enough, at least for second?
Because a white man killing a Black man in American has never failed to be charged… /s
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I didn’t imply shit, yo; I tend to say what I mean, and mean what I say… (or, write.)
My personal moral compass says someone “should have” at least cried out “Stop!” and no one did; that’s a fact.
Well, since it isn’t my intent to “convince” you of anything, I really don’t care.
I have my opinion, just as you have yours.
Mine stands that if regular people just stand by and do nothing then evil succeeds; period.
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Seconded.
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This is so tragic.
And also, not trying to blame the bystanders, I don’t know what that must’ve been like, but…fuck…the fact that not one person tried to de-escalate the situation blows my mind.
Like, I’m trying to imagine it - you’ve seen the scenario go down, maybe at first you’re even kind of glad someone is stopping this man from aggressively harassing people, then you see the man go limp…how could you NOT, over the course of the next 12 minutes say, “Hey, buddy, I think he’s calmed down now. Thanks for neutralizing the threat, really, but I think you can ease up on his neck there. Don’t want to kill him, do you? DO YOU???”
SMDH.
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Sarcasm or not, it’s not about inconvenience; it’s about fear.
You and MerelyGifted unintentionally said as much:
But this. But that. I would have, but…
That’s the fear center of our brains trying to rationalize our own inaction. The excuse generator. Sometimes the excuse is reasonable; sometimes it’s not. Either way, it’s an excuse that allows our fears to hold us back.
And you summed it up perfectly:
If no single bystander can make it make sense in their own minds, then no action will be taken by anyone. And here “makes sense” means getting over our own (rational? irrational?) fears.
We fear getting hurt ourselves, or being ineffective, or a combination of the two, or something else entirely that’s just as irrational.
It’s the same reason the shitty Uvalde police didn’t rush in to save those kids. They were afraid that one of the themselves might get shot. It was just as much a shitty excuse then that it is now for the bystanders in the Neely murder. Fear. I don’t blame* the bystanders, I empathize with them.
*I 100% percent blame the Uvalde police because that’s their goddamn job; they took an oath to serve and protect the public!
Self-discipline would have been Penny not engaging with Neely at all. By the time he chose to attack Neely self-discipline – along with rational thinking – was left at the previous station. Penny perceived Neely to be a lethal threat; he saw Neely as an enemy combatant. It doesn’t matter what is or isn’t when one’s mind has crossed so far over into the irrational.
Whatever the cause for this triggering, the result was choosing to take lethal action. And my original point is that we should not be surprised or “astounded” in any way that this could (did) happen. “Who trained this guy?” The Marines trained this guy.
Marines may be trained in self-discipline, but they’re not trained in mental stability.
Can you also use your astounding mind-reading abilities for good?
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