I fully expect congress to get involved, and change the laws that this isn’t a problem in the future - for the airlines. after all, gotta save them jerbs.
7 Likes
Not really, from a legal standpoint; the intentional battery resulted in his injuries and his unconsciousness.
So don’t repeat it. Seriously, even referencing or linking to bulshit rumors only perpetuates the victim blaming.
10 Likes
Well I was going to reply but I’m pretty sure you will have been dealt with by now, so what’s the point?
1 Like
I appreciate people digging through the intricacies of United’s legal stuff, but I still think there’s some sleight of hand going on. Even if the forcible removal were executed according to United’s policies, it would still stink. Oversales, rule 21… These just involve authority the airline grants itself.
6 Likes
I believe Jet Blue has always had a policy of not overselling.
5 Likes
Or maybe the conversation should’ve gone like this:
UA: Sir, ma’am, I’m sorry but you’ve been randomly chosen to be assigned to another flight, you’ll have to give up your seats.
Dao: Look, I’m a doctor. I have to be at work tomorrow on my hospital rotation.
UA: You’re right, saving lives is pretty important. I’m sorry to have bothered you. Let’s go to the next on the list.
16 Likes
I agree that he was probably not picked because of his race, although its possible the person generating the list of 4 people to boot off the plane did not do it randomly but was influenced by their names. We know that names influence the way people are selected for stuff like job applications and rental housing as well as just general openness.
However I think it is likely that his non-whiteness played a part in the escalation to violence. That a white guy, without an accent and especially one who claimed to be a doctor, would have been afforded a lot more respect, if not outright deference.
13 Likes
I don’t know that allowing the airline staff to decide which passengers have more important jobs than others would be the best solution either. Sweetening the deal for getting bumped until someone bit is really the only solution that would be fair for everyone.
20 Likes
Well, it involves authority you agree to give the airline when you buy your ticket.
There’s limits to that. I mean, if they wrote in their agreement that they might take your child as an indentured servant at their discretion, they still wouldn’t be able to do it, but you’d have to take them to court over the matter to demonstrate that the agreement you made was unlawful (if the contract uses the words “first born child” you likely have an easy case, but real contracts are going to be harder to deal with). We all agree to all kinds of legal stipulations all the time through our ISPs, email providers, coffee machines, etc. I used to sell insurance policies and they pretty much all have a “look, we don’t have to pay you anything,” rider in them somewhere.
Sometimes when those have been tested they’ve been found to be unenforceable, sometimes they’ve been found to be enforceable. So if it comes to court, I think you’re right. This isn’t just about what the rules say. It’s about whether those rules are fair. Courts can and do make rulings on whether contracts are fair. I think any good court would give a fair bit of leeway to a consumer who agrees to a contract by checking a box over a company that drafted the contract with an army of lawyers. People pointing at rules to fight off arguments that you shouldn’t be removed from your seat are essentially implying that you ought to employ a lawyer when you buy an airline ticket.
13 Likes
“A lack of preparation on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.” I don’t care that they needed to transport employees, they should have thought of that before they sold the tickets and allowed the passengers to take their seats.
The rest of your post is dead on.
8 Likes
Oh yeah, I’ve been ticketed for expired tags. I better add that to my list of scandals in the other thread.
4 Likes
Oh, cool, I didn’t know anyone had that as a publicized policy! I was thinking of the ‘big three’ carriers but that’s a good clarification nonetheless.
1 Like
You’d think that, right? But the FAA caps these payouts at around $1600, so, they might have found the extra 4 seats if they’d bid higher. If the bidding hits the cap, they don’t have to play nice any more
1 Like
There’s a powerful marketing message here.
We all know, normally if you don’t have a seat assignment, you might not get a seat. Having a reserved seat greatly increases your chance of actually getting on a flight, but doesn’t guarantee it.
Checking in and having a boarding pass normally guarantees that you’re on the plane. Checking in and getting no seat assignment, but a message to check in at the gate again, means it’s iffy.
Anyone that’s a “no show” doesn’t have a boarding pass. Trouble getting a boarding pass usually means you’re late to check in and the flight was oversold. You’ll be lucky to get on now. Similar to when you cannot reserve a seat at reservation time when normally possible. Presumably, people that checked in and got boarding passes are out the ticket if they “no show” after that.
Finally, actually getting on the plane and sitting in a seat that matches the boarding pass you scanned to get on, would mean you’re on the flight, all risk of not making it because of overbooking is gone at this point. By the time you get here, all your checked baggage and carry-on bags are stowed and ready for the trip too.
But, now we have a new marketing message from United. What United is saying is that even at this point, there’s a chance you’re not making the trip. For whatever reason, nobody is talking about it in this light. That’s one hell of a strong marketing message that “Even though you’ve reserved a ticket, paid for it, checked in, gotten a boarding pass, and boarded the plane, THERE’S STILL a chance we’ll just kick you off because we need the seat and to bad you had plans”.
It might as well be a casino, it’s all a gamble that you’ll actually make the flight right up until the door closes is the official message from United.
People already have travel anxiety. Usually it let’s up by the time they’re in a seat or have a confirmed boarding pass with seat assignment. Now, you’ll have entire United flights that are anxious right up until the door closes and you push back.
17 Likes
Not beaten, but if you watch the video closely that horrible screaming seems to be because his thigh appears wedged under the armrest – when that finally lets go, all that stored pulling force rams him into the armrest. Given Dao’s age, he’s probably lucky he didn’t get a fracture in that leg.
The other cops were allegedly handling the situation ok until officer gitmo arrived.
7 Likes
You’d think that, right? But the FAA caps these payouts at around $1600, so, they might have found the extra 4 seats if they’d bid higher.
There were already passengers offering to leave their seats for that amount (according to eyewitness accounts on reddit who also posted photos of their boarding passes).
Also, citation? I think you’re thinking of the required payouts for involuntary denied boarding which is $1350 and irrelevant to this situation.
3 Likes
Exactly, this taps into a deep discomfort people have when flying – they’re giving up control to the airline and trusting them to treat them well and get them somewhere, your only security being your seat and the ticket putting you in it. It’d be bad enough for United if the news story was “man who bought ticket kicked off plane so stewardess could have free flight”, but this is a perfect storm of awful PR:
- man chosen at random by a computer to get kicked off, no recourse
- senior citizen, doctor
- Asian-American
- manhandled and badly injured after protesting
It’d be hard to invent a more potent example of how bad an airline can treat someone when they feel like it.
18 Likes
If you take the word “human” out of the discussion and replace it with ‘cattle’ you will have a better picture on how airlines see us.
Cattle prods are nearby.
8 Likes
First the library books, now this?
19 Likes
I think you mean “there’s a chance we’ll deny you boarding”. Y’know, after the flight “was fully boarded” (quoting Oscar Munoz email to employees.)
3 Likes
