This is the only thing I have heard recently about the Presbyterians. I didn’t know it was still a thing.
Yeah. At first I was very shocked. Then I read that it was PC-USA, not PCA.
PCA are more of your traditional Calvinists.
I don’t see them going that way any time soon. What really surprised me was the Lutheran Church’s (ELCA) new (wider) stance on the issue.
Yeah its schismish sort of thing that’s been bubbling for a while. Some how my local Presbyterians and several other super conservative congregations in the area ended up sticking with the main body (PC USA) when the gay clergy thing happened. Supposedly because the Presbytery owns the buildings and is unlikely to allow said congregations to hang onto them. They used to own the local community theater and censor the plays put on, but were recently forced to sell the building (Theater NPO managed to buy it). So things are probably not good over there as it is.
Oddly enough I recently heard the more mainline Presby church at the other end of town lost its building. My friend’s mom was the minister there. Used to invite atheists, evolutionary biologists, and civil rights leaders to give guest sermons. And used to buy us Testamints because she thought they were hilarious. Maybe if the crazies lose their building the mainline guys will get a new church out of it.
Yeah its absurdly complex. I was raised Episcopalian and even in that one denomination there’s a ton of different divisions internally. There’s the Anglican thing, so Church of England etc. vs the Episcopalian Church which is the largely independent American wing. Then there’s a mainline protestant wing of each, vs an Anglo-Catholic wing of each. And then there are conservative vs liberal versions of each of those.
Long story short my Priest was openly gay (and he was definitely a Priest not a minister) and my congregation was full of angry, retired nuns. Our Sunday School teacher was probably an Atheists with a phd in physics. And Optimus prime may or may not have had a place in the manger at Christmas.
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I left the church in part due to the homosexual issue (I went to a non-denominational church that was theologically reformed Baptist, but had a Presbyterian assistant pastor). The way I saw it, the Bible doesn’t need to be 100% factually accurate, but moral unreliability was more damning. I honestly tried to find a compromise, but I couldn’t find a position that took the Bible seriously and also accepted homosexuality as valid. The explanations either try to culturally contextualise statements against homosexuals but ignore the greater questions that take their place, or they limit the scope of the condemnations and end up not really improving matters. It doesn’t need to be the single issue that it’s become in churches, but I can’t agree that the Bible isn’t against homosexuality. A third option is to do what the PCUSA seems to be doing: treating the Bible as a human, fallible book that had errors in it and can be overruled. To be honest, that looks more like a kind of culturally Christian humanism to me; I happen to agree with them on most of the issues, but I’m not sure what the point is any more.
I’d like to think that love is the point.
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Love is certainly important, but it’s a long way from being the main point of Christianity. If it were, large parts of the Bible and Christian teaching would make no sense at all (including the parts about love). I suspect this is why even central principles need to be demoted to ‘guidelines’ for the sake of a more liberal theology, but I just think there are other religions or secular groups that would be a better fit, as they have a lot less baggage. As I said, I actually agree with what they’re saying, I just don’t think it’s Christian theology that got them there.
I’m atheist now, but I grew up Presbyterian. Eventually left the church, but not in a fit of rage and anger. Just out of growing out of literal interpretations of religious texts. I hold no ill will towards my old church, still occasionally go to a service and visit my pastor. He’s a good guy.
Growing up Presbyterian was my earliest exposure to tolerance of other people and cultures. Our town had a huge Southeast Asian influx in the 70’s and 80’s and our church threw open its doors to them to come and use the space not just for religious stuff but also for social gatherings and whatever else. It was a huge risk for all the old elders to agree to it, and we successfully knitted our different cultures together.
It was a very open-minded place and they taught me a lot of useful lessons. Presbyterians are a little different than the other denominations you might hear about: methodist, congregationalist, lutheran, baptist, etc. Presbyterians are like a slightly more conservative version of Unitarians. There’s protestant Christianity, and then over here in the corner of the map are a couple oddballs like Unitarians and Presbyterians.
It’s not 'important, but.…’
It is, was, and will ever be the whole point of the Christ.
You seem more concerned with reading the Bible as a rulebook. Would that be accurate?
I think the Biblicans should leave us Christans alone.
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Bravo! Now I see why they’re the only ones who made the cut:
http://www.epic-randomness.com/tag/heaven-is-for-presbyterians/
Not really, I see the Bible as a complex book that was intended to be taken as authoritative but not strictly literal. It contains rules, but it isn’t limited to that. To understand what Christ meant to his followers, it’s hugely important to see the cultural and theological background he came into. He did bring a message of love, but not universal acceptance. He may have brought an end to parts of the law, but not because he thought they were bad; rather, they had been fulfilled and were no longer necessary. Those parts and Paul’s writings still need to be addressed in a full Christian theology.
Is this the same Presbyterian church that also voted to boycott the only nation in the Middle East that does not jail or execute gays? Or does my newsfeed have a typo of some sort??
Does anyone have any Nomex underwear?
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