On a slight tangent, don’t you wish Russia could suck a bit less in their actions? They could really have an important role speaking truth to power.
Speaking at the conference, the Chief of Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, Valery Gerasimov, said the rise of terrorism was partly the result of “attempts to transfer the values of Western democracy to countries with their own mentality, spiritual values and traditions… this had exploded North Africa and the Middle East”.
The question I asked you was:
“I guess you think women are respected as equals and their opinions are valued in the religion of Islam.”
Where can you show where women are respected as equals in the religion of Islam?
The religion of Islam as defined by the actual scriptures of Islam, in the Qur’an.
Sura 4:3
3 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
Sure 4:34
34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Sura 33:32-33
32 O Consorts of the Prophet! Ye are not like any of the (other) women: if ye do fear ((Allah)), be not too complacent of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speech (that is) just.
33 And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.
Sura 2:223
223 Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.
Sura 2:228
228 …And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Sure 4:24
24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (slaves): Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Sura 2:21
21 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.
Sure 4:11
11 Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah. and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
My god this is getting tedious.
Religion reflects and has a major impact on people and their lives on this planet. You define yourself as a person who is sensitive to the struggles and oppression of others, as well as being morally intolerant of bigotry, racism, violence, sexism and discrimination. Were can I find where you are outraged and concerned about the bigotry, racism, violence, sexism and discrimination contained within the scriptures of many of the world’s religions like Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism etc etc.
If you want to do right by people who are oppressed–your moral outrage should be foremost and on full display on this BBC site, over one of the most oppressive entities on earth, institutional religion. I am curious, where is it?
Umm…what?
Fun fact: the shape of wine vessels like that make no sense until you realize that it’s perfect for standing upright in sand. I wonder how far down (provided there’s a roof overhead) the sand stops being ridiculously hot and starts being more like a root/wine cellar. Or conversely, if the heat from the sand is what helps the wine ferment.
And what exactly will that do to make things better? What will crying out into the void that this is WRONG! and must be STOPPED! do for anyone?
If you take up a crusade against a group of people, do you know what happens? They see you as an enemy, and disregard everything you say. They devote all of their efforts to destroying you, instead of trying to change and become better — and you undermine the efforts of the people within the group who are themselves fighting for change.
Religious extremists thrive on an “us vs. them” mentality. If you play into that narrative, you’re helping no one except the extremists (and perhaps providing a mild catharsis to people who agree with you). The people who can be swayed won’t be swayed by insults and outrage, and the people who can’t be swayed will only be made stronger by them.
If you want to improve the religion of Islam, you can’t do it by tearing down the people you disagree with — you’ll just become a shining example of the evil that they are waging war against.
For any religion, or, indeed, any dogmatic or ideological group, to improve, the change needs to come from within. If you want to help, try raising up the people who are trying to change things for the better, rather than attempting to tear down those who do things that you despise.
The only way to use hatred to end a war is genocide - otherwise, for every mole you whack, you’ll enrage two more. If you don’t like the option of genocide, your other option is reconciliation. How is chest-thumping moral outrage constructive towards reconciliation in the slightest?
If you want to keep railing against religious oppressors, by all means, do so. Don’t let me stop you. If you want to wage your own private war of words, that’s your prerogative. Just don’t expect other people to laud you for it, or to join in, or to pretend that it is helping improve anything in the slightest.
Oh we have found that the threads do end at 10k replies. 
Though I guess it might be something to look forward to here.
This has actually been on my mind the last few days, because while I was with my dad he gave me the usual plastic bag full of articles, etc. that he feels I simply must read. Also, the Sunday comics from the local paper and the NYTimes Sunday Book Review, despite the fact I’ve told him for decades that I read papers online, and haven’t read children’s comics since I was in college…but I digress!
Anyway, one of the articles was a piece published by Hillsdale College by a federal prosecutor involved with 9/11 and other similar terrorist attempts, who claims that he bought the Democratic Party line that Islam was a peaceful religion being twisted by a few extremists until he “studied” the Koran and discovered that it was filled with bloodthirsty vengeance against anyone who was not of that faith (e.g., Christians).
Here’s the problem: virtually all the stories are the same. If you read Gilgamesh, they were already there. Then the Jews put them together in their language (Hebrew) and add stuff to make their group seem like the pinnacle, the special ones chosen by God (us versus them). Then the Christians take those same stories, add some stuff in their local languages (Aramaic, Greek) to make them seem like the be-all-and-end-all. Then the Muslims take the same stories and do the same thing in Arabic. (Fast forward to the 19th century, and you’ve got Joseph Smith doing the same thing, but it’s far enough along in history – and literacy – that he’s got to make it an additional book instead that he’s magically translated from God’s language into English.) In fact, because they came after, Muslims have more belief in Jesus’ stature as more than just a Rabbi than Jews do…technically, Christians in this country should be more aligned with Muslims than Jews. It’s (basically) all the same stories, and it’s all the same god.
So, the reason this guy was able to find so much violence against non-believers in the Koran is because it’s exactly the same ‘kill everyone who isn’t part of our group and salt the earth afterward’ as the Bible. Islam is exactly as bloodthirsty as Christianity. It has the same lack of respect for “the other”, which includes women and people of different lands (which often translates to different skin tone) and religions. So yeah, women don’t have equal rights in Islam…just like they don’t have equal rights in Christianity.
In the U.S., the number one cause of death for pregnant women is being murdered by a man in their life. In Muslim families that man might be more likely to be her father or brother and in Christian ones it’s more likely to be a current or former intimate partner, but it’s still women being killed by men due to their belief in a religion that tells them women are subordinate to them and thus should be killed if they say or do anything the man doesn’t want.
And before we point out that women can’t drive in Saudi Arabia, we should probably consider that on the continuum, the U.S. is closer to the middle than the front end when it comes to equal rights for women in all areas. We’re better than Saudi Arabia, but we’re nowhere near the front of the pack.
I actually don’t care what the Koran says - it’s not my holy book. How do people interpret it, is the question. I care about how people actual exist in our physical reality today. Are there women who are Muslims who suffer oppression? You bet. Are there women who are Muslims who are free individuals and live happy and fulfilling lives? Yes. We can cherry pick holy books all day, and it tells us nothing about lived reality. That’s what I care about in this case. You want to talk about how women are oppressed, in all sorts of ways, all over the world, by all sorts of cultures (religious and secular) and rail against that, then I’m with you. This sort of blaming of Islam as somehow being especially bad on the treatment of women does nothing to further the conversation, it only alienates the people who might actually need help.
Because these same religions have also spawned powerful movements aimed at freeing people from oppression. Religion, like anything else, is a mixed bag. It’s all intepretation.
People are allowed to choose their battles, you know. Not everyone wants to spend their lives screaming at clouds or tilting at windmills.
Since you want people to justify their actions, how about you justify yours?
WHAT IS YOUR END GAME?
What is the point of all this ridiculous copypasta?
###NOOOOOOOO
#STOP WASTING THE MIDORI!
Hush it is just green colored, no midori involved.
