Does that mean I can disqualify your opinion based on your gender?
Here’s something else from the real world. You. And the people on this forum. And every other reasonable person in the world who doesn’t blame victims.
You would treat the beliefs of the victim blamers as truth, and react accordingly by mistrusting all strangers, just so you can have a defense against those idiots. They’re idiots. Ignore them.
Be a good person and a kind person, with no special concern for your gender. If you find that men are dangerous and unpleasant, don’t copy them. Be better.
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From Jezebel’s take-down of the shitty comments on the WSJ article: “-people that don’t understand the distinction between being polite and feeling the need to please others constantly-”
That need to please others constantly is something I’m working my way out of really goddamn slowly. I pat myself on the back every time I manage to not respond to a random guy hitting on me with some kind of awkward grin.
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You mean the way girls/women who are NOT pretty and nice have always been treated by the “pretty and nice” people?
You have clearly missed the point. By pretty she clarified that she meant dressing, looking and acting in a defined way. She wan’t talking about actual beauty, she was referring to the dresses and tight jeans girls are encouraged to wear. She explained her daughter would prefer to wear elastic-waist soft pants to these things. By nice she stated clearly that she did not mean “polite.” Her daughter IS polite. She just doesn’t smile when she doesn’t mean it.
So yes, I DO think girls who wear the clothes and makeup as society deems “pretty” SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY “SHOULD” BE PRETTY, are fake. When you smile at the creepy guy who’s staring at your breasts, that IS fake. I admire women who don’t.
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Wow, [sic] on a casual spoken usage. That’s some nice pedantry.
But when strangers talk to her, she is like, “Whatever.” She looks away, scowling.
Look harder.
To say that she is raising the child to be her not nice self is a fancy way of saying that she’s not teaching her daughter manners. Is it your assertion that manners are natural born to some people, and not to others? That kindness is not something that parents can engender in their children? That attitudes toward strangers are what, genetic?
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You’re not entitled to a response from every person you approach on the street. I’d argue that the opinion that you should respond politely to everyone you meet is more rude.
She specifically pointed out that her child has manners and morals.
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In my 20s I really struggled with this too. I was taught to be nice, to be compliant, but that left me unable to defend myself. When I was just out of college I volunteered at a listening hotline and learned how to be polite but also strong. It has been one of the most valuable things I have learned, to stand up for myself without being mean, to speak my own truth.
I read the article with a lot of skepticism as well; maybe it was just the style but I definitely wondered if this mom were capable of seeing her own daughter clearly at all. And I also wondered about her pride in her daughter;s antisocial behavior. It just seemed so odd. To want your daughter to show up at prom in pajamas - wtf? You’d be proud if your kid went to a fancy occasion dressed totally inappropriately? How about having that kid who makes her own awesome prom dress, or is one of the duct tape dress winners, or wears a pantsuit, or something traditionally masculine - someone who finds her own way to express herself but still has a place at the party. To want your kid to be a reject seems odd for any parent.
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Talking to strangers is unsafe behavior for ten year olds. Hell, it was unsafe when I was ten more than forty years ago! Adults should not be striking up conversations with kids who don’t know them, and kids should scowl and look away if/when they do. I don’'t see anything that indicates Birdie is unkind or impolite; in fact, the author is clear this isn’t true. She just hasn’t bought into the myth that you must dress, act, and be a certain way to have value. And that’s awesome!
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That’s the way it worked out with me as well. My parents didn’t fight me on whether I was being too “girly” or not girly enough. I made my own choices, sometimes incorrectly, but learned to deal with it better that way I think.
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A child should scowl at each and every stranger who approaches him/her. What, you think kidnappers and rapists and serial killers aren’t charming and nice? As a general rule, they are, FFS! Actual kind adults should know better than to approach children without approaching the child’s parent’s first.
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I am a woman who was raised to be ‘nice’ and warm to everyone who approaches me. This morning, I went across town to the ‘nice’ laundromat to wash my clothes and a well off middle aged man kept following and harassing me while I tried to get quarters, pick out detergent, put my laundry in the machine.
My impulse response through years of conditioning by very traditional parents was to smile politely and nervously laugh. When I left I hated myself that my learned reaction to people being rude, crass, or inappropriate to me is always smiling and ‘niceness’. I am very envious of that little girl.
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There’s absolutely no hint in the article that this isn’t the case. If you’re going to run through responding to each of my comments, use some quotes, They’re super easy, and they’ll help me follow what idea you’re responding too. (Though I’m not likely to respond to much of what you’ve said, given your tone, veering from “[sic]” to ALL CAPS, with a sprinkling of exclamation marks. I’m probably too fake for you anyway, seeing as I expect people to debate with a certain degree of decorum and respect, even with strangers.)
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Gods, you’re being obtuse. There’s a gulf of difference between civility and mindlessly engaging in behaviors that only serve to strengthen patriarchy.
I sincerly hope you don’t ever have any daughters.
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I’d say it extends well past girlhood and follows women for their whole lives. Want new workout clothes that aren’t pastel? Nope! And my short hair still gets me my share of lesbian jokes.
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Well, why else would you have short hair?
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Just my 0.02 here, but the first time I met French people I found them off-putting and rude. It took me a while to realize that the problem is they don’t smile at strangers. Americans do, and we think that’s “normal,” but around the world it’s considered weird.
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Clothes not coming in the color you want is “violent and totalitarian”?
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I… um … suppose. I’m absolutely certain that you can’t mean that being reasonably friendly to strangers = only serving to strengthen the patriarchy.
The people in this thread have done a good job of perfectly linking two ideas that are not so linked in the article. The way it’s written, the girl is unpleasant to all strangers who try to talk to her.
The author doesn’t correct her daughter’s crappy behavior toward all strangers (women seemingly included) because sometimes strangers are creepy, and if you’re usually friendly, you won’t be able to be unfriendly to a rapist. (does she have this same concern that her son is laughably simple minded, or is she actually overprotecting her daughter here?)
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As somebody who is about to have a daughter in two months, here’s how I read this, and here’s how I would like my daughter to be:
-
I hope she’s kind enough to speak up when others aren’t being treated fairly, to be helpful and polite, and to learn how to get along with other people as equals.
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I also hope that, when random dudes on the street start telling her to smile, when random men come up and ask her if she’s lost when she clearly isn’t, when anybody makes her uncomfortable and when other people (men, women, teenagers) start trying to demand that she adhere to their idea of what a girl should be, I have given her enough backbone, strength of her own convictions, and confidence in herself that she feels absolutely no compunction in ignoring those people, telling them to mind their own business, or telling them to fuck off. Whichever is most appropriate.
She doesn’t have to be nice to everybody. Nice is different from kind and polite.
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I’ve been out of the states, in a no smile country for a long time now, but every time I go back, that’s been my impression as well, even in sort of urban environments. (probably not as much in NYC)
It seems like my feelings aren’t mirrored by too many posters.
I think this is a big point of confusion. I would say nice and kind are synonyms. Polite is slightly different in that being polite just involves following social convention. Saying thank you without actually being thankful is still being polite. If I walk through a door and someone is a few steps behind me, I will keep that door open long enough for them to catch up. In that situation, I’m being nice and I’m being kind. I can’t seem to think of a situation where I would describe someone being nice without also being able to describe them as kind or vice-versa.
Also, congratulations on your soon-to-be spawn.
