Raising a daughter not to be 'nice'

Some things that I learned from your link:

  1. Cat calls are an “assurance” that a woman is “sexually desirable”. Silly me, I thought it was sexual harassment. I am confused, though, about all the unattractive women (like me) who get cat calls … what is that supposed to mean? Or should I just shut up and take the compliment?
  2. Many feminists want “to be seen as weak, delicate flowers rather than as strong and capable women”.
  3. Society either uses men or ignores them. Apparently this treatment is new to him, so I guess that means that women are never used or ignored.
  4. Men are “forced to be active agents of society”. The female role is the opposite. They do not “approach, initiate, take charge, and make decisions”. I am not sure if females are choosing not to be active agents or if females are physically/mentally unable to act in such a way. [side note: How do lesbian relationships happen? (The author specifically mentions that neither partner takes the “female role” in gay male relationships.) Does one have to take on the “male role” first?]
  5. “According to feminism male privilege guarantees that he has it so much easier than women. They laugh at the notion that it might be difficult to be a man in this society, because they can’t see the other side.” Apparently I imagined all those feminist discussions which point out that saying “feminine = bad” negatively affects anyone (female or male) who acts “feminine”.
  6. Women have the earned the “ability to enter virtually any career they wish and fully participate in society”. I guess we can just ignore the studies that show that when presented with identical resumes, people will rate the candidates with male names as more qualified and offer higher starting salaries. Or those situations where only male politicians are discussing health care laws affecting women.
  7. Feminists want both male and female rights, but “are not willing to give up traditional female rights in return”. I would like to know more about all these “female rights” that I have. I didn’t realize that I was hoarding them from all the men at there.
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Just my 0.02 here, but the first time I met French people I found them
off-putting and rude. It took me a while to realize that the problem
is they don’t smile at strangers. Americans do, and we think that’s
“normal,” but around the world it’s considered weird.

Not-so-coincidentally, French women (and men) are more attractive, more gender-conforming in their appearance, thinner, and less narcissistic than their American counterparts, and they dress better too.

That is the part that isn’t true. Men and boys do not face higher rates of violence and death every day than women or girls. It’s at equal rates. Each sex just is victim of different kinds violence more likely to be acted on them.

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Well, we can try it. Catching him red handed hasn’t worked very well. He just might understand it a bit better if the shoe’s on the other foot.

Thanks.

Oh, the spitting was dred. He’s pretty well past that one now. The random freak-outs are ongoing and can be triggererd by the appearance of a housefly, or a request that a disused toy be put away, or upon hearing it’s dinner time three minutes (or less) after complaining of hunger, or sometimes by nothing discernable at all. :frowning:

We tried Ain’t Misbehavin’, but our mileage definitely varied. Probably our biggest hurdle at this point is the boy never shuts up long enough to hear, let alone listen, to anything anyone else has to say. No kidding, he can’t be quiet for even 2 seconds unless he’s sleeping. I’ll check it out, though.

My first child, not one parenting book helped. Even my best friend was astonished that all of her favorites were useless. My second child fit the parenting books much better. Just a heads-up, in case you have one of those children who defy the odds. They still grow up OK, and even get more understandable (mostly)!

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Me three. And in the NYT column, I can tell how much her mother loves her. Which probably has a lot to do with how awesome the daughter is.

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I didn’t take it as bragging so much as “I hope she stays this way, because gender constraints are still fucked up.”

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You seem unable to tell the difference between humane expectations that people be civil and patriarchal expectations that women smile all the time, at everyone.

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Yeah, she really does need to just shut up and obey the implicit and overarching patriarchy’s constant demands that she smile all the time and be happy with subservience. And be happy as well if her daughter starts acting that way too.

:-/

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It’s a lot like suburbia, you just use a car a lot less. Otherwise you have finicky kids, smart kids, cranky kids, funny kids, all doing kids things like school, playgrounds, ice cream stores, museums, playdates. Oh, we probably have fewer parents with guns, but that’s about it.

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That’s right! Because nothing says rebellion against the patriarchy like projection onto your daughter.

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“Projection”? If that’s what you call perceiving reality as it is and conscientiously raising one’s child accordingly, so be it.

Seems to me, though, that the word is just as apt for what you just did.

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!! : ) Lol, what??

Please tell me exactly what I wrote that showed projection on my part. Hey, maybe I am projecting, I’m open to evidence. Otherwise I can just say you’re projecting by saying I’m projecting. Nyaahhh Nyahhh. And we can push that around all day and get nowhere.

It should go without saying, but I’ll make clear, that I have absolutely no problem with a parent preparing their children for their future battles. What bothers me is a parent preparing a child to fight that parent’s battles in the past. And that’s what I see more than a bit of, in this parent’s own words. The parent here also seems to equate ‘nice’ with ‘being weak and potentially manipulated’ - a rather sad collapsing of concepts that tells me she hasn’t processed her own past.

If you don’t see this parent’s stated raising of her daughter as trying to refight her own battles, but only prepare her daughter for her daughter’s future ones, then great. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. In any case, these people we’ll probably never meet will grow up and find their own paths anyway.

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So the world no longer constantly exhorts women to be nice and smile all the time, along with less-than-subtle suggestions that their opinions and perspectives just don’t matter as much as men’s do, and that they should be satisfied with lower wages and salaries, and on and on and on? If you believe that that’s all in the past (like white people who believe racism no longer exists), well, you’re probably not walking in women’s shoes.

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So the logical response to society’s tendency to view women’s self-determination as ‘not being nice’, is to decide not to be nice?

That is just avoiding self-determination also. That is staying firmly within the conceptual frame that society is imposing, rather than rising above it.

Rising above it would be demanding and getting better wages, salaries and treatment - and distinguishing that from whether or not you’re being nice to people.

Do you see what I mean?

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I would imagine that there’s a sizable overlap between those two groups.

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You cannot teach a child that hitting is wrong by hitting them.
You cannot teach a child that lying is wrong by lying to them.
To raise a child who is compassionate enough to do the right thing is hard. There is no simple formula - it is the work of a lifetime.

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You think not smiling causes all that? I just knew I was doing something wrong!

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The difference you don’t seem to be grasping is that between being nice to people on one’s own terms and constantly being expected to be nice.

The NYT author isn’t saying women should never smile and be nice. She’s asking that the world stop expecting that of them no matter how they’re feeling at the moment nor who and what they’re dealing with.

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