“Their country ripped out from under them”? That is a peculiar way to describe “Having to endure a change of government because the previous prime minister has bugged out and fled the country.” You make it sound as if some portion of the population of Ukraine’s eastern provinces are entitled to dictate the country’s government, and any non-Russian-puppet regime is a usurpation. The separatists are called “separatists” because they have declared themselves to be a separate, autonomous country… do you have a better term in mind?
Rebels seize MH17 plane crash black boxes and bodies, human remains shipped on train to unknown site
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If the Ukrainian separatists were involved, then they shot a missile into the sky hoping to kill a great number of people, but it turns out that the hundreds of people they killed were from other countries… so you term that an accident? WTF?
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You’re right, I guess. Putin’s disgusted denouncement of the western media, his vituperative denials of the involvement of Russian arms, his convincing and heartfelt pity towards the crash victims and their families … it all adds up.
You’re right, just so bloody right.
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The fact that you are convinced there is a cover up going on, instead of the much more likely scenario that these are a ragtag bunch of fighters in over their heads with a plane crash on their hands is telling that the narrative is taking hold. This “reporting” we are all responding to is classic Xeni and the BB crew naivete, buying the MSM line regardless of past lies and without asking who benefits from this narrative.
I’m right that you don’t really know what’s going on at all, yet apparently feel comfortable enough to pass judgment anyway.
Where was your concern for loss of life when the fascist-led Kiev armies were burning people to death a couple months ago?
This is a warzone, and in war soldiers try to kill each other. The fact that this time some civilians were killed either by accident or as a false flag doesn’t change that fact.
And if your primary concern is with ending the bloodshed, then where is your condemnation for the US-led coup that started this in the first place?
Fine. So how is it if I don’t know what’s going on, you do? Or rather, that you’re quite happy and confident in your assertion that I don’t know what’s really going on? How is that?
And what judgement, pray tell, have I passed?
I think it’s safe to say that any judgement of the situation will be assisted by employing as much cynicism as you can muster…
The Ukrainian PM fled for his life when the Right Sector neo-nazis were trying to kill him. He was elected by the people of Ukraine in its entirety, unlike the current coup government.
You’re standing reality on its head here. The eastern Ukrainians are fighting because the government elected by the entire country was removed in a violent coup and replaced by a government dictated by the west. And no, they are not “separatists” because they have declared themselves a separate country, they are called separatists because they refuse to accept the coup government that was forced on them and the western narrative is doing what you’re doing: turning reality on its head to suit US government goals. The eastern Ukraine wants their legitimate government reformed, and to be recognized as Russian speaking Ukrainians. which is what they are and have been for centuries. They don’t want to join with Russia or break with Ukraine. Learn something before you ignorantly spout lies and propaganda.
I’ve clearly stated that I don’t know what’s going on, but that logic dictates one of two scenarios:
A missile attack that accidentally shot down a civilian jetliner, or a false flag attack. The eastern Ukrainians have nothing to gain from killing foreigners, while the US and its puppet Kiev government need to corral the EU into cooperating with the harsher sanctions they want imposed on Russia. They’ve been largely unsuccessful and now with this attack have a much bigger moral stick to beat on the EU with. If you had been following this civil war closely you would know these things. Instead you read some MSM garbage and instantly start spewing hate and vitriol.
15,000 feet? casually picking fights with everyone? Yandex calendar?
What the fuck are you talking about?
What about Russia? You didn’t assign any meaning to the Russian involvement. What might they gain?
What’s MSM?
You’re assuming a bunch of things here. One is that there is any evidence at all in the wreckage of whose missile it was that shot down that plane (assuming it was a missile). The missiles Ukraine uses are from Russia, so any evidence will be ambiguous at best. You’re also assuming the reporting that the eastern Ukrainians aren’t allowing inspectors to do their jobs is honest, when that’s not clear at all. It sounds as much like chaos as anything else honestly. And if you think the NY Times is beyond building up false narratives I have an Iraq war I’d like to sell you.
If we’ve learned one thing over the past 15 years its that we need to take a deep breath and hold off on snap judgments in these situations. The US government doesn’t want that because it wants to quickly force the EU to support its more draconian sanctions against Russia before cooler heads can prevail, so every piece of “evidence” is being spun towards that goal. If you wish to ignore such advice that’s your prerogative, its only your own credibility that’s at stake anyway.
It seems that you are suggesting that Mr. Putin is the victim of bad press when really we should suspect the United States for the downing of this plane or maybe it was just some freak accident. Gee, given Mr. Putin’s overall record of being a great guy maybe I should buy your line of logic. But I don’t. Somehow I get hung up on issues like his handling of Russian journalists that were murdered or Pussy Riots treatment or his open minded embracement of LGBT people among other issues.
No, I’m not saying the US is a saint but given the choice between the two countries I’ll take my chances with the US. Yes our hands are dirty too but I still feel a bit safer here than there.
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MSM is western Mainstream Media.
What Russian involvement? If you’re referring to the Russian involvement that is claimed by the US government, I’m not buying it. Russia was winning this whole thing. They had no reason to get involved.
All Putin had to do was sit and watch the sanctions fall apart as the fall comes and Europe needs its natural gas supplies to start flowing. The US project to isolate Russia was falling apart. And now this jetliner goes down and all the sudden the project is brought back to life. Coincidence?
if this were a “false flag” attack as you propose, wouldn’t it be in the interests of the separatists (or whatever we’re calling them) to give full access to the international community instead of buttoning up the crash site and shipping evidence off to god knows where, or else just letting it rot/rust in the fields?
something i’ve learned in the last few days is that the sa-11 system, the one that the separatists claimed to have captured on the 27th of june or thereabouts, only has a horizon of 35 miles (ed: it’s 35km, not miles.). if this was a “false flag” operation as you suggest, then the missile(s) would have had to have come from outside that range, and outside of rebel (or whatever we’re calling them) territory.
missiles have a pesky habit of mingling with the aircraft they shoot down, so surely there must be a long-range sam tangled up in there somewhere, no? something that international inspectors could identify as not being the sa-11 that the resistance (or whatever we’re calling them) could not have fired, placing the blame squarely on someone else?
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Putin is no saint, and I don’t believe him over the US government. They’re both playing realpolitik here. I’m asking the question what did Putin have to gain by downing a western civilian jetliner? He had nothing to gain and a lot to lose.
The US had a lot to gain, and so when I ask who benefits from this event being pinned on Russia, the logic leads me to a US false flag. As I wrote, it could be an accident, but what its most certainly not is Putin or the eastern Ukrainians purposely shooting down an airliner. It plays directly into the US government’s hands. Why on earth would Putin do that? He’s not a nice man, but he’s not a dumb man either.
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You’ve got two scenarios here- a few dumbasses with missiles fucked up and shot the wrong thing, or a vast global conspiracy involving dozens of governments, mainstream media outlets, independent news outlets, and social media users, all working together in perfect concert to pull off a false flag attack and subsequent cover up.
Sometimes things are the mainstream media consensus because they’re right. And because the alternative is absurd. Going with the absurd explanation just because it’s not the MSM line is a good way to head off into crazy Alex Jones land.
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Its too early to know what really is going on there. I’m not buying the line we’ve been fed.
I’m not clear on your point here. There are a variety of missiles that Russia and the Ukraine have access to that could’ve shot the plane down. The sa-11 system the eastern Ukraine forces claimed to have captured was reported to have been disabled. Its also very unlikely that any parts of the missile will be intact anyway, even if the type could prove something which it really can’t.
That’s kind of the lost control thing I’m talking about. His separatist surrogate’s that he has armed to the teeth are too ill-trained and disciplined to have that kind of firepower. Turning hot-headed stooges loose to do your dirty work often backfires. They screwed up and killed 300 innocent people. Maybe they didn’t intend to but that was no accident, they intended to kill someone. Kind of like hunting with Dick Cheney…oops I thought you was a duck.
