Mod note: A reminder that our community guidelines prohibit posts advocating for or encouraging violence. That’s especially true of extrajudicial violence.
20 Likes
Is there anything to back up your point of view other than belief?
6 Likes
“Can I take Racism for $500?”
6 Likes
Let’s see … Pretty much every international report on the matter, perhaps?
It’s organized crime, not “desperate people trying to simply survive.”
Does organized crime “use” desperate people, as such? Sure. No denying that.
But poaching is NOT driven by desperation, it is driven by pure greed.
Nice of you to clip my post apart to make it appear that that’s all I said as well. Leaving out the final bit about poaching being driven by greed.
1 Like
In what remote alternate reality is this racism? LMAO
The part where poaching for things like rhino horns and ivory takes place almost entirely in impoverished areas by people who live in desperate poverty. It’s not greed if it’s one of the only ways the poacher can feed his/her family.
The people who are in fact greedy are the organized criminals who trade the goods that are poached. These same people never touch a rifle or participate in the slaughter directly. The people being killed and tortured in the subject of the report are the ones who do the illegal hunting directly.
16 Likes
It was an honest question and I didn’t think accusing the poachers of greed in the end did much to change the message of your post.
In any case, giving desperation as a reason for poaching, @Brainspore was obviously referring to the people doing the dirty work and not the organised crime organisations behind them.
11 Likes
You mean impoverished areas like the 3rd world in general, or impoverished areas like national parks?
Saying poaching is “out of desperation by people trying to survive” is simply making excuses for the poachers.
Is it okay for a hit man to murder people for money so that his family isn’t in poverty, even tho the people who hire him/her never touch a weapon themselves?
Hell no. Obviously not.
These people know full well what they’re doing, yet they still do it. No excuses.
Also, it is decidedly NOT simply “impoverished people” poaching and literally driving species to extinction. They are organized. They are paramilitary themselves. They are well armed. They kill park rangers.
Stop making excuses for poachers.
I certainly do NOT endorse torture or other alleged human rights violations. Obviously not. However, I question the reporting on this issue very much.
I have zero sympathy for poachers. They know what they’re doing. Poverty is no excuse for crimes against nature (which driving animals to extinction most certainly is)
2 Likes
We actually have some data on what drives poachers and poverty is a primary factor, but relative poverty is important as well as absolute poverty. Organizaed crime largely comes in at a later stage than the actual hunt, who are the people likely to face the issues in the article. https://news.mongabay.com/2017/03/probing-rural-poachers-in-africa-why-do-they-poach/
5 Likes
Ignoring poverty as a driving factor of poaching means you’re much less likely to find solutions that effectively address the problem. Eco-tourism isn’t just effective because it teaches locals to love animals more, it’s effective because it gives everyone a tangible incentive for keeping those animals alive.
The reason that there have only been maybe 4 cases of poachers killing Florida Panthers in the last 30 years isn’t that Floridians are inherently less greedy than Nepalese people. The reason is that even desperately poor Floridians usually have better options available than shooting an endangered animal so some rich asshole can keep its pelt as a status symbol. The cost/benefit ratio just isn’t the same.
13 Likes
You certainly assassinated that straw man quickly!
Did you even read the blurb, much less the article? It’s entirely about the human rights abuses.
Thus helping to enable the continued human rights abuses. Nice work!
As has been discussed several times in this thread, redirecting the motivation of the poacher from making a buck by killing endangered animals to making a buck for an ongoing time by keeping those endangered animals alive is a MUCH better use of resources than arming a paramilitary group to kill and torture people for even being suspected of maybe sorta participating in killing a rhino, after the fact, maybe.
12 Likes
Since I can’t reply to more than 2 comments at once …
Making excuses for poachers because of poverty conditions is just that: Making excuses for poachers.
Education of the locals CERTAINLY needs to be part of ending grossly rampant poaching.
People responding to me are like “what drives poaching is poverty.”
NO NO NO NONO
Without the market, without the greed, people wouldn’t turn to poaching to escape poverty.
THE GREED drives poaching. The world-wide market for poached goods drives poaching.
Poverty does NOT drive poaching.
GOOD LORD!! … I can’t even wrap my mind around that misappropriated excuse. What sort of cognitive dissonance do you have to have to make excuses for poachers because SOME poachers are doing it “because of poverty.”
They know what they’re doing. They’re well organized. They’re well armed. They’re well aware that they’re driving species to extinction. THEY KILL PARK RANGERS. They kill anyone who’s a threat that could get them busted.
Greed, organized crime, the world market. THESE drive poaching. Those drive EVERY black market. Poverty decidedly does not drive ANY black market.
Making excuses for poachers “because they’re in poverty” is what enables poaching to continue at the rate it is. Alarming rate. Disgusting rate.
Poachers are literally committing crimes against nature by driving species to extinction.
Human rights abuses in seeking to end poaching are, obviously, wrong. There are definitely innocent victims here, and that seriously needs to be corrected. Yes. No disagreement there.
MY problem here is the whole “OH! those poor poverty stricken people. What else are they to do but engage in extinction level activity to survive?” cuz that’s a load of crap.
Like I said, poachers are well aware of what they’re doing. No excuses, and I personally have no sympathy for them. For ACTUAL poachers, that is … not victims of overzealous and misguided poacher-hunters. That is equally wrong. No excuses for that either.
But stop being apologists for poachers. JEEZ! >:frowning:
1 Like
Sure, sport. Just like poverty has nothing to do with who chooses to become a crack dealer or a prostitute. It’s all purely about individual choices that have nothing to do with underlying problems.
13 Likes
The market is what drives such activities. Engaging in them is a choice. Poverty doesn’t “cause” it or “drive” it. The quest for “more money” drives it. Seems like an easy way out.
Again, citing poverty as a reason to engage in poaching is a lame excuse which also enables poaching.
It’s as simple as this: If there were no market for poached goods, would these people be poaching.
The answer is, obviously, no.
That inherently means that poverty is not the driving cause of poaching.
“The market” is made up of two forces: supply and demand.
The poorer a populace is, the larger the percentage of that population who will be willing to supply illicit drugs or sexual services or violence or poached animal parts to meet the demand of people who want to buy them. If you take poverty out of the equation the supply for all those things drops dramatically.
9 Likes
So it sounds like you are saying that what poor people do, doesn’t have an effect on say, rhino horn demand. Rich people want the horn. Organized criminals see the opportunity to make money of the rich and then use an endless supply of disposable desperate poor people to get the commodity.
So how does killing and torturing the poor people that are being used by criminals help with this crisis? This is like shooting the 14 year old that slings drugs on a corner thinking it will bring down a drug cartel.
A more sensible approach attempts to disrupt the poaching pipeline at each stage.
If poor people can make more money preserving animals than killing them, then you make a dent in part of the pipeline.
You must also target organized crime and corrupt officials motivated by greed not subsistence.
You must also target the purchasers of the product of poaching.
11 Likes
I feel like what you’re trying to say is that this is a top down problem; get rid of the market for these illicit goods, and the impoverished aren’t going to poach endangered species. However this doesn’t change the fact that it’s still the most vulnerable populations that are driven/forced/exploited into doing this. If you want to solve this from the top down, attrition of the foot soldiers through murder will do little to move the needle.
8 Likes
Not without demand they won’t.
And if you think taking poverty out of the equation will end the supply, you’re delusional.
Demand precedes supply. No one creates a supply without a demand.
Taking poverty out of the equation dramatically reduces the supply. How many rich kids choose to sell crack on the street or prostitute themselves for a quick buck?
12 Likes
Holy fucksocks at some of the skewed “thinking” in this thread.
15 Likes
