Saudi prince MBS ordered operation to lure and detain Jamal Khashoggi, U.S. intelligence intercepts reveal

Yeah, and George Washington said:

“However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”

And we all know how that turned out too.

Succession is a tricky thing in general, and there’s no magic bullet solution, including liberal democracy.

You can keep your unelected monarchies, thank you very much.

Election is false legitimacy. I have yet to have so-called elected official actually represent me or my interests (or the interests of the majority of the population). They make promises, pocket a bunch of money, and then bugger off and blame the next person to fill their seat as the source of the problems they themselves created.

I prefer to have someone in power who actually has to think about long-term things (both liberal democracy and capitalism are antithetical to long-term thinking, apparently), since they’ll be in power (and thus held to account) and if not them, then their heirs or close family members.

In the modern world, an unelected monarch is less likely to bring about economic and social equality than is an unelected Leninist vanguard party (which historically fails at doing that, too)

Haile Selassie brought great reforms in education and improved quality of life for ordinary people. With a lot of pushback from established nobility.

You want to improve quality of life for the people, try expanding their educational horizons* and then asking them to decide what they want. If things go pear-shaped they’ll have only themselves to blame.

I agree up to the “asking them to decide what they want”. Liberal democracies present so few options, in the US there is Pepsi (=Republicans) and New Coke (=Democrats since Bill Clintons). Other countries will sometimes present more labels (Lib Dems=Tab?), but they’ll turn out to be the same sugary shit in the end. And - even if the choices were better - then you have to factor in how much deep and reasoned thought an average person is going to put in when they vote (and I’m not excluding you or me from this either). “Someone promises me an extra $1000 tax rebate now? Who cares about 5 years from now? I’ll vote for that person.” Again, lack of long-term thinking is an issue.

The best thing is devolve as much power as far as it can be devolved, without electing people. And I’m not talk “states’ rights” or anything like that. Let small communities make decisions. Not everything can be devolved, of course. And for those things, you need someone with long-term thinking and a sense of honour and responsibility, and very few people elected to offices of any import have anything close to either of those things.

Out of curiosity, how do you see your wonderful monarch coming to power? Ordeal by combat, perhaps?

That’s a BS false equivalency. Plus the American duopoly party system of liberal democracy is not the only one out there.

No-one is claiming that liberal democracy is perfect or flawless, but the words of Churchill (an imperfect and flawed man, to forestall your ad hominem) still hold true:

Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­ra­cy is per­fect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time.…

If that’s your path to monarchy, you’re basically describing a feudal system where the guy who’s the biggest local thug becomes a local community’s baron, after which the warlords fight it out to become king.

Also the lack of accountability at the end of the process makes someone with long-term thinking and a sense of honour and responsibility being in charge less and less likely as time goes on (it didn’t survive one generation in your Nepalese example). Historically speaking, Haile Selassies are the rare exceptions rather than the rule. So no thanks, I’m happy to take my chances here in the post-medieval world.

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Setting the various snarks in this aside, it’s a good point. The answer is: I don’t. For places which are currently republics and which weren’t monarchies in the near past (so there’s still hope for Nepal!), I can only imagine the ‘wrong sort’ of people coming to power in anything like this fashion. That is, a high up military officer declares martial law and then makes himself ‘king’. And that’s not at all the sort of thing I have in mind. So, no, I don’t see how new modern monarchies could form in any desirable fashion.

the words of Churchill (an imperfect and flawed man, to forestall your ad hominem ) still hold true…

No ad hominem; I simply disagree with Churchill’s assessment. Here’s a counter-quotation (J.R.R. Tolkien to his son Christopher; emphasis added by me):

"…the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity. At least it is done only to a small group of men who know who their master is. The mediaevals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Grant me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you dare call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers. And so on down the line…
…My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning the abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs)—or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate real of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate! If we could go back to personal names, it would do a lot of good. Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so to refer to people…

Let small communities make decisions. Not everything can be devolved, of course.

If that’s your path to monarchy, you’re basically describing a feudal system where the guy who’s the biggest local thug becomes a local community’s baron, after which the warlords fight it out to become king.

No, that bit wasn’t directly relating to monarchy vs republic. And I wasn’t thinking of a hierarchically structured feudal-type system (though feudalism mightn’t be so bad as long as all of us were at least lords, but it isn’t too fun for peasants and so isn’t really what I had in mind), but something more like Doctorow’s walkaway communities.

Those are anarchist communities. While there are leaders, no-one’s formally in charge.

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something more like Doctorow’s walkaway communities.

Those are anarchist communities. While there are leaders, no-one’s formally in charge.

Exactly. This, up the line, up to the point where it fails to scale, and then damage control at that point.

Well then, why promote unelected monarchs? @doctorow is quite opposed to the return of that kind of barbaric relic. His novels generally feature some of the leaders in these utopian movements ending up as authoritarian arseholes who betray their ideals.

Like captial-L Libertarianism, anarchism can also end up in feudalism of one sort or another.

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Sometimes they make enlighten choices to protect their oligarchies.

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And that’s one point where I sharply disagree with @doctorow, his republicanism.

Why unelected monarchs: Once systems scale beyond a certain point, they’re inevitably manipulated. Look at any country you choose, with elected officials. They’re never the sort of people you really want running things. And even when they’re not themselves completely horrible people/thinkers (e.g. Thatcher, Reagan, Blair, May etc.), they’re usually easily corruptible.

Your Bernie Sanders are even rarer than your Haile Selassies. Ultimately, in places where you’re forced to have someone in power, you want a person of integrity and wisdom.

Trusting in systems never works out; trusting in people sometimes does (if rarely).

Or in short, a half million of the poorest people in the world with cholera in Yemen, basically turning disease into a tool of war, is a minor point.

But do something to a fellow WaPo op-ed writer and every journalist gets a chill down his back and it’s Red Alert time, This Cannot Stand, This Crosses A Line, etc.

I have every sympathy for the journalist - it was Anna Politkovskaya Day the other day, and it should be a paid holiday everywhere as far as I’m concerned.

It’s just that the lack of concern for OTHER people by journalists reporting on Saudi - much less politicians aiding and abetting them - has been sharply highlighted.

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Exactly. But how often do you hear anything about Yemen being reported?

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Ultimately that’s the system you want: one that ensures the oligarchs/aristocrats/vanguard party/etc. can only preserve their privileges by not constantly acting like selfish and power-hungry gits. And you only get that with accountability, which usually implies republicanism or some other democratic system.

Even magical plot device replicator technology doesn’t emerge without people placing some trust in systems. The Internet wouldn’t exist without trusting in systems.

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Sure. But even in the Star Trek universe the head of the Federation isn’t a replicator machine.

She sure as hell isn’t an unelected monarch, either:

The replicators themselves have their origins in making starships dispatched by that same republican Federation self-sufficient, which implies a systematic development process overseen by state.

The mirror-universe Empire has the same technology, of course, but I doubt the Emperor just willed it into existence.

Anyhow, this is getting off-topic. If you want to live under a system of unelected monarchy that was outmoded in the West 500 years ago, Saudi Arabia beckons to you.

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Unfortunate, but if that’s what it takes for the world’s attention to be drawn to this scumbag regime I’ll take it. Perhaps it will draw more attention to their depredations in Yemen in the process.

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Yemen just infuriates me because of the cholera. I honestly don’t know whether Yemen is better off dominated by the Saudis or dominated by their own local dictator. But cholera, well, I spent my career in the water industry and the educational materials we were given on that make me hate anybody who does anything but exterminate cholera, drop any other conflict to fight cholera… is a traitor to the human race.

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I’m happy to talk through and disagree politely on various points, but that’s pretty uncalled for, seeing as how I made my strong hatred of the House of Saud and their Wahhabist tyranny quite clear early on.

(Meanwhile I have relatives languishing in prisons without access to books in your enlightened liberal Western democracies.)

In the US, rather than competing with socialism, the Endarkenment found it easier to entrench the idea that anything even slightly to the left of center was Stalin / Venezuela. (And never mind Canada and Europe.)

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Well, choose another one, then. I’m sure you can find a non-constitutional monarchy out there that’s a paradise compared to the republican hellscape that is the OECD countries. My advice: choose one where the enlightened individual in whom you’ll put your trust is younger than you (but not too young – those teenaged heads of state tend to be a bit erratic). It’s all about playing the odds.

No-one’s saying they’re perfect. I’m sure the prisons in your unelected monarchy will be centres of learning, as they were with your esteemed Shah.

As I recall, the final straw was the military demanding, and not receiving, an increase in wages. Flash-forward more than 40 years and here’s what happened yesterday(?) when the armed soldiers showed up at Abiy Ahmed’s office:

(Previously)

a third of which are monarchies…