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So, then how to any movies get made, if only the best actors get cast? Why are you holding trans actors to a higher standard of craftmanship than their cis counterparts?
Maybe, but if acting talent is rare in people in general, then it seems like we would be in constant want of talented actors for big budget films, but plenty of mediocre actors make the cut.
I never said it was easy… any craft requires hard work, not just talent, is my point. Actors who end up being understood as great didn’t just happen, they were made.
There is nothing stopping a trans person from becoming the next great actor with regards to some natural talent buffeted by hard work. They might already be out there. The problem is more often than not, getting in the higher end casting calls. Part of my argument here is that limitations often stem from the “normalization” of ideas such as audiences will out identify with those that look like themselves or with those who they feel a sexual attraction to. Time and again, that’s proven not to be the case.
I’d say that there are probably many people who don’t care about acting as an “artform” but they view it as a job, and good enough gets them the job. Part of my point here is that not everyone has to be Daniel Day Lewis level of great to get work in hollywood, even in big budget, mainstream films. Hence, the dearth of trans actors who may not be “great” is even more mind boggling.
Going back to Tom Cruise, who I think is not that great of an actor, there is no doubt that the dude busts his ass. I know he regularly does his own stunts, which is no small feat for a man in his 50s. But Tom Cruise is also a pretty powerful figure in Hollywood, which helps protect his acting career. Tom Cruise doesn’t NEED to be Daniel Day Lewis to get roles, because people know he’s a bankable star and he has some measure of job protection, too (he resurrected UA and is still a producer there, if I’m remembering correctly). And I’m not trying to attack Cruise here. I think he’s had some good roles that I’ve enjoyed him in - A Few Good Men, Minority Report (though it’s hard to really fuck up PKD), Edge of Tomorrow, Vanilla Sky, Magnolia - he’s had a long and successful career and he gets the job done as an actor. But I can rarely forget who he actually is. There are other actors where I immediately do that - Gary Oldman is a great example of an actor that I can never remember all the movies he’s in, because he so completely inhabits the role. Daniel Day Lewis is another one who completely disappears into his character. But not everyone needs to do that to be enjoyable to watch on screen.
If not every actor needs to be GREAT and many bankable stars are in fact not master craftspeople, then what is keeping out mediocre trans actors?
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And why are there so many shitty movies in existence, if that was actually the case?
The current status quo that straight, White, straight, cisgendered males are almost always the first actors considered for the majority of roles in the mainstream American film industry.
No matter how it’s spun, there’s no getting away from that undeniable fact.
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Technically yes, but isn’t it already the current motto of the Republican party?
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Closer to two million
the williams center study shows trans adults re .6% of the pop & children are .7%
current US pop: 326,766,748
1,960,600 US trans folk
Current world pop: 7.6 billion
.6 x that 45,600,000 or so trans people in the world
Significantly larger than many populations - Jews, Armenians - Native Americans etc.
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To put that in Hemsworths.
There’s 24 million Australians - and the 2000 census says only 64,000 in the US. Let’s just double that for arguments sake and say 120,000 now.
About 15x more trans folk in the US than Hemsworths. 2x more worldwide.
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*snickerz
That’s just wrong…
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Crappy movies often get made and bomb, sometimes that’s because the actors weren’t up to snuff. But more generally there are styles of movies that can work with actors who are decent but have other outstanding qualities, but they’re generally not in dramas. To be an actor in a good dramatic movie I think you need to be a really good actor.
If acting talent were rare a constant want of talented actors for big budget films is exactly what you’d expect.
And I’m not sure it’s that rare, it’s just that I think you’re dealing with a very, very tiny pool of trans actors.
You regularly hear about auditions involving dozens or hundreds of actors and the director still being unable to find someone they’re happy with. If you were a director looking for a character with a specific race, gender, age range more many trans actors might you find? A couple dozen? Now consider looks and body type and you haven’t even gotten to the part where they’re trying to pull off the role. I think you’re taking a very big risk that you won’t be able to find a suitable actor.
Now if you’re looking for a supporting role instead you might have a lot more leeway in the type of actor you consider and you can look a lot more auditions.
That’s also my point. Even if you have a trans actor with the right natural talent you can’t throw them into a lead role of a big budget film and expect them to succeed. You need more roles throughout the industry to develop them.
I’ve argue that myself in the past but I’m not sure it’s a fair comparison. Part of it is that Tom Cruise might just have a more distinctive appearance, but another part is that people who cast Tom Cruise want everyone to know they cast Tom Cruise.
That’s surprisingly high to me. I found a summary though it didn’t seem to cover how many had transitioned (or how much) or how many were “out”, which is seems to be the main number we’re interested in. For instance, we wouldn’t have counted the Warchowski’s as trans producers 10 years ago even though they still were still trans 10 years ago (we just didn’t know it).
For all we know Tom Cruise could be the transgender A-List actor everyone is talking about and we’ll never even know it.
The Williams Institute is the most respected organization on lgbt demographics. Their studies are better supported and regarded than your hunches.
But even using your hunches there are more trans people in the world than many other populations. Let’s take it in half to approximate your hunch. That still means 23 million or so - still more than the world population of Armenians and Jews - and equal to the number of Australians.
I’d wager you won’t say that there aren’t enough of them to be represented in high levels in this or any profession.
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My question wasn’t about the quality of the number, it was about what the number actually meant. You could have 20,000 actors identify as transgender for the purposes of the survey but it won’t matter if none of them publicly identified as such.
If you’re talking Hollywood you can really only count the populations of the US, Canada, Britain, and Australia. I posted the imdb list previously, there’s a few actors there, but not a lot. If you’re casting a role you better be looking at a specific actor or you need to be prepared to change the role to whomever you find.
It’s an old excuse that industries just can’t find qualified minority employees.
It’s not true of any industry- particularly if the argument isn’t just that you can’t hire in representative numbers - but can’t find any at high levels of ability.
That’s a failure of the employers ability and lack of vision. And often indicates prejudice and implicit bias.
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Holy fucksocks; how many different ways does this have to be reiterated?
What’s next; ‘binders full of transwomen?’
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The excuse is traditionally applied to very large groups like Hispanics, Asians, or African Americans, in which case it is ridiculous.
But we’re talking about a much smaller group and an exceptional position that only a minuscule proportion of people in the industry achieve. And it’s honestly a skill set that no one here really understands. Perhaps Tom Cruise is a mediocre or only slightly good actor. Or maybe if you put him on a stage with 99.9% of average working actors he might blow them away with how good he is. I don’t think anyone here knows acting talent well enough to answer that question.
Is it that ridiculous a proposition to say that we should at least start with the sub-elite roles? Start by getting more trans characters and actors into ordinary TV shows and supporting roles in movies so those trans actors can develop their craft. Give them a chance to prove their skill and build a following so a producer is willing to make a $50 million dollar bet that they can carry a movie.
I guess the Wachowskis will just have to move back to Chicago.
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I don’t understand this comment. The existence of two high level transgender producers means that high level transgender actors also exist?
There’s also a former Olympic decathlete, does that mean there’s now a transgender NFL or NBA player?
Given the 0.6%, and assuming no bias, there probably are a few NFL and NBA players, but given that none have come out demonstrates that a bunch are like the Wachowskis used to be, transgender but not prepared to go public. Suggesting 0.6% isn’t a useful number for predicting the number of publicly transgender actors.
There’s a discussion to be had for de-stigmatizing transgender so more of those 0.6% are prepared to go public, and once that happens you will find some very high level actors along with a bunch of CEOs and other professions. But that doesn’t mean there is currently a publicly transgender actor with the skillset to play the role Johansson was going to.
I feel sorry for you.
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Gal Gadot made $300k for the first Wonder Woman - Chris Evans the same for the first Captain America. Chris Hemsworth made only $150k for the first Thor.
Every larger Hollywood film doesn’t cast a big name, big money, well known star. Hell - Mark Hamill never acted in a movie before Star Wars - just tv.
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i’ve been following your back and forth with some of the other members here and i really don’t get your point of view on this at all. are you seriously arguing in favor of tokenism? you’ve also made any number of remarkable statements. let me point out a few of them–
is that meant to suggest that you do?
it depends on what your definition of is is.
which, if you follow your logic, there never will be because you’re always going to be hiring from the larger pool.
i’ve already disposed of that one.
you have to make a lot of really peculiar assumptions to really believe that statement.
because gradualism and tokenism worked so well when it was applied to race and gender?
yet you seem to feel that a regime more similar than different is perfectly acceptable, or even necessary for trans actors.
because that would be moving too fast to suit you?
because . . . reasons?
once again you have to make a lot of assumptions to make that paragraph work.
and given your apparent preference for gradualism and tokenism it doesn’t seem likely that there would ever be enough.
real life has a lot more texture and variation than you seem to allow for in your projected psychology of sex appeal.
i’m glad you admitted there was at least some luck involved, one of the greatest pieces of luck is to be born to famous or wealthy parents–
and with a policy of gradualism and tokenism there may never be.
you keep pushing that assertion without any offer of proof. at least you are consistent.
you seem to have a couple of ideas fixed in your head (1. there aren’t any trans actors with the ability to lead a major film and 2. we need to give gradualism and tokenism a few more decades to work their magic) which seem very unsound to me. most of your other arguments are really just extensions of those two assumptions.
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It’s weird because even if the trans actor is the lead and isn’t as veteran actor as other cast members - often the rest of the cast is. Chris Hemsworth in the first Thor was an unknown and hadn’t developed yet fully in his craft. But he was surrounded by Idris Elbe, Anthony Hopkins, Tom Huddleston and Rene Russo. They brought the weight that the lead character lacked. Not having that heft and developing it was part of the story and growth of the character. And his callowness became a dimension of the character he need to grow through.
The trans actor won’t be out on the stage all alone for the entire film.
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