Secret history of "Positive Thinking" and the New Age

Most of the “positive thinking” people say “See, positive thinking really really works! I can prove it! Here’s an example of somebody who thought negatively, and failed, because they didn’t try to do something that they really could have succeeded at!”

But that just shows that Negative Thinking can work really well. It can - doesn’t require any magic, doesn’t require any fictitious Laws of Attraction or whatever this week’s flavor of positive thinking hype promises. Doesn’t mean that Positive Thinking also works; some New Age Woo-Woo who promises that you can heal your cancer if you Think Positively is a dangerous charlatan, and while somebody who tells you you’ll get rich from the Universe’s Natural Prosperity if you go to their Positive Thinking Seminar may actually believe it instead of scamming, that doesn’t mean it’s not a waste of your time.

On the other hand, while firewalking works because of simple physics, not because of the mystical woo-woo the seminar leader is pushing, the mystical woo-woo does help you psych yourself into stepping out and walking, and simple physics isn’t going to stop your head from telling your feet “Don’t walk on that, it’s a FIRE!”. So have fun with that stuff if you want, just don’t take it too seriously.

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But he’s right. His comment was about how people are perceived,not how they actually are.

Ok, but he said in reference to me personally who he knows jack shit about.

Pessimists think optimists are naive; optimists see pessimists as cynical.

Sorry, but I’m not his label he wants to apply to me, nor perhaps from you either. I’m neither a perpetual pessimist nor a perpetual optimist. I’m a bit more complex than that, and I think I would know. If you want to describe yourself in that manner one way or another, have at it.

I was in agreement with your viewpoint, actually

Strange way of saying it, IMO. I apologize if I’m a bit jumpy, I’m getting a little tired of the ration of shit I’ve been receiving on these boards lately without provocation. I’m ready to snap someone’s neck at this point.

I think you may indeed be a bit jumpy. There wasn’t anything “strange” about The Noodler’s comment on its face value.

I think you may indeed be a bit jumpy.

Pretty sure I said that already.

There wasn’t anything “strange” about The Noodler’s comment on its face value.

That’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it.

He said that my comment (which was obviously espousing the virtues of practicing positive thinking and how it’s helped my life) made him think of the notion that people like me who say they practice positive thinking are a lot times assumed to be naive or ignorant.

I personally think there’s better ways to word that and Noodler graciously explained himself further. I think we’re over it now.

The use of “indeed” means that I acknowledge you said that already.

My use of “pretty sure I said that already” was that your comment was redundant.

http://narrative.ly/pieces-of-mind/nick-brown-smelled-bull/

Positive psychologies unstable ground.

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Emphatic, rather than redundant.

Emphatic can be pretty obnoxious. I’ll agree with that. :stuck_out_tongue:

To get back on track, the book looks like an interesting way to trace how positive thinking got its boost from occult aficionados Way Back When™, and how the way it was presented evolved over the years without devolving into a big mud fight about whether it works or not.

In the interests of fairness, let me state that I personally treat positive thinking as a bonus on the die roll of life, but even a +5 does not guarantee success. We just tend to think of it as an absolute pass/fail, which it can’t be.

Every time I’ve tried it, it hasn’t done me any good.

I wonder what’s your methodology?

maybe it’s because I have a deep dislike for egotistical people and when I try to convince myself I’m better than I genuinely think I am

That may be your problem right there. IMO, thinking positively should never entail convincing yourself that you are a better person than you truly are. And, it certainly shouldn’t entail being disingenuous or you’re simply being overconfident (and perhaps egotistical).

That’s how people get killed in surfing and I’ve regrettably seen that happen myself. I don’t care how “positive” someone thinks about surfing large waves, if they don’t properly train for it beforehand they are likely to get seriously injured or killed.

Just like many things in life, along with knowledge, you often have to earn the waves by using proper strategy to get into the right position and paddle your ass off even when you’re exhausted and want to stop. Positive thinking might keep you from wanting to stop paddling when you need it, but if you overestimated your knowledge of the break, nothing is going to stop a wave from smashing you into the rocks when you’re perpetually caught inside the breaking waves from poor positioning, etc.

To me it’s almost a “mechanical” lizard brain approach to thinking that has very little to do with ego (at least when it comes to bullshit pride). For example, if you talk to a lot of dynamic basketball players they’ll tell you they envision making their shot just before they shoot. They literally see it happen in their mind’s eye before they attempt the shot. That doesn’t make them egotistical, does it?

I’ve practiced the same thing with surfing large waves I’m scared shitless to drop into and many other surfers will tell you this this exact, same thing… you’ll very often know a split second before you drop into the wave if you’re going to make it or not.

If you manage to put aside panic (not fear in these situations), clear your mind enough to envision making the drop and riding the wave, you’re incredibly more likely to actually make it. When I’ve allowed panic to take over, my mind takes a shit and I don’t visualize making the drop at all. That’ll often cause hesitation and failure.

You do also have to get over one’s natural fear of failure and that, of course, is going to be much easier to cope with if you’ve been realistic and prepared for the possibility of failure. Healthy, positive thinking shouldn’t even be delusional where you give yourself no margin for error.

It’s that healthy fear that keeps me from surfing waves that are simply too large for me to mentally handle without probably freezing into a deadly panic. And, that leads to another huge thing. Respect. I have respect and awe for the ocean’s power. I’m aware that I’m an insignificant speck in the ocean and if I get overconfident, it may kill me.

I think many things in life are a lot like that as well. If you respect the obstacles you face and therefore properly prepare for them, you’re going to be in a much better position. Afterwards, if you visualize paths to success, your subconscious mind is more likely to do small actions that may perhaps lead to larger, positive actions. If you go to a job interview and don’t envision success beforehand (along with proper preparation, of course), you may get overly nervous, start sweating and screw up answers to questions, etc.

Of course, that doesn’t mean you’ll get a specific job simply because you “thought positive” or whatever, but at least you increase your odds of getting jobs by being less likely to freak out at the interviews for them. Confidence, not overconfidence.

Does that make sense? Visualizing success? Literally playing it out in your head like a little movie? That’s one of the core parts of positive thinking in my opinion.

tl;dr - How about you give me a little summary of your story you linked to?

It’s not as if we actually have any type of agency or free will anyway.

I’m not sure I understand you. Do you think you’re a part of God’s plan or something and therefore you have no free will and influence over your own life?

Obviously, any one of us can get hit by a bus tomorrow, but I’m going to give the raging drunk driver worse odds.

Besides, who decides what is “positive” and what is not?

You decide that for yourself, don’t you?

I know that starving people think of food in a very “positive” way, but that thinking does not fill their stomachs.

Not directly, but in a roundabout way it may at least buy them more time. For example, a more perpetually pessimistic, starving person is perhaps more likely to have a heart attack before their next meal than the more optimistic starving person is. :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, the more optimistic person might put more effort into seeking out food and find it, whereas the depressive pessimist is more likely to give up, roll up into a little ball and die.

I think you may be confusing positive thinking with blind, wishful thinking. I think there’s a difference.

One’s predicament is their own fault because they don’t think positive!

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. I think people can run into trouble because they’re too overconfident and also run into trouble because they’re too pessimistic. In my opinion, positive thinking is about using moderation, good judgement and fortitude to make yourself and/or others happy. That includes being pessimistic on occasions when the factors warrant it. If I was on a sinking ship, I’d be pessimistic about staying on the ship, but pretty damn optimistic about getting my ass onto a lifeboat.

If we all decide what “positive” is for ourselves, then the very concept is merely a language game, in which any horror or atrocity can be seen as “positive” through certain perspectives. Like the idea of “karma” which we are not equipped to understand, the idea of “positive” as communicated to another person is an impossibility and maybe even an insult because of it’s patronizing tone.
Why would you insert “God” into this discussion? I never mentioned it. However, it does show your pattern of thought that you could not think of the lack of free will without “God” being involved. To me this statement that you made is yet another example of why we do not have free will. Think of the layers of social, economic and cultural conditioning that you have had in life, how much of that did you personally have a hand in? Start there, then think about communication, language and how you apply that external force to your own perception of yourself. After you’ve peeled the many layers of life in which you are just moving through the currents of society and language, maybe then you could start to look into the metaphysics. So, NO, you do not have agency, sorry to break it to you.
On the other hand, it’s not such a bad thing to be relieved of the pressure of having free will. There, I’m being positive.

That wasn’t obvious to me.

Me too. The first time I broke a board, on my first try (luckily for my bones), I stood in mild disbelief. I just did what the instructor told me to do, and it worked.

That incident provided a metaphor for so many events in my life. I went back in the sea to start surfing again a few years back, having not really done much before, but the board-smashing thing stays, and teaches you if you want to, if you believe, you generally can.

So 10 days ago I was out in gusting 40 knot winds, 10 foot waves, having a blast.

Thankyou, sensei!

Ugh. So defensive with your cheap shots! Take it my response personally if you like, it really makes no difference to conceptual discussion. Just remember that you initially responded/reacted to my statement and not the reverse.

The dirty little secret is that apparently they often bring in boards with the grain running along the short dimension. They’re downright fragile. (ref. https://web.archive.org/web/20071016215455/http://randi.org/jr/08-10-01.html )

Well, ‘positive thinking’ encompasses loads of different suggested techniques, and over the years I’ve tried bits and pieces of them, but I’ve never been able to keep up with them or see any significant benefit. Maybe I quit too early, but…how long does one try something that doesn’t work and only seems to depress me more?

That part was in reference to the affirmations aspect of positive thinking… you know, mentally telling yourself the “Every day and in every way I’m getting better and better” mantra (manifestly false, I’m sure in some ways I’m getting better, but for one obvious example, my body is past it’s prime and my memory is getting gradually less acute!), or “I’m awesome and people like me!”. And in those, I think the whole POINT is to tell yourself that you’re a better person than you truly think you are in the hopes it’ll boost your confidence, but to me it rings false and makes me dislike myself for the pretense. And the truth, as I see it, does me no favors, I’m already convinced of it (even if I happen to be wrong). What would be the point in repeatedly telling yourself, if you genuinely believe it: “I’m probably about average in most things, good at a few things and absolutely suck at some critical things, but, all in all, let’s face it, the world as a whole could get along quite happily without me, I’ve got nothing that hundreds of thousands can’t do far better.”

As for visualization? I can agree there’s probably some benefit in purely physical affairs, a basketballer making a shot, a surfer, whatever. None of them really fall into my areas of interest though (I have poor depth perception due to a serious eye problem as a child, so sports never particularly interested me) Job interview? Social situations? I’m far more skeptical about it helping there, because I’ve done that regularly, and it helps nada- other people rarely follow the scripts I set up in advance. I get overly nervous regardless and anything I visualized goes out the window. I’m far more likely to do well if I can manage to not go in with any expectations, push it completely out of my mind (while, in some cases, preparing anyway). Writing? I can visualize myself writing and selling a great short story, and it does nothing to help me write a better one, except the very basic level of sticking with it (of course, you could argue the act of writing the story itself is visualization, but in that case, there’s still no way to visualize your way into doing it better). And convincing yourself to ‘stick with it’ is not nothing, but if that’s all there is to it, I’d still say the ‘power of positive thinking’ is vastly overstated, and I’d rather people just call it “the power of perseverance” and cut out the mystical associations.

In fact, most of the things that I legitimately do well at involve almost no visualization beforehand, at least in the ‘positive thinking’ sense of visualizing myself succeeding at it (sometimes there’s visualization required to come UP with the solutions, but I think that’s a different beast). Mostly, with things I’m good at, it’s just stuff that I’ve always had a knack for or where I’ve kept at it until I developed the skills, and after that, I do the tasks almost unconsciously. And even when I was learning the skills,I don’t recall much visualization taking place, but that could be my memory playing tricks on me.