Confirmed by The Intercept, for what it’s worth
This wasn’t any helicopter. It was one that was beyond secret - not even dreamt of by the public press. And we supplied a great chunk of it to the Chinese. That cannot be part of a plan. If the Pakistanis were allowing us in there, we would have went in with standard, non-secret, safe long-range helicopters like Chinooks.
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When I first saw this story as a blurb among other news items, my first thought was that Hersch was claiming bin Laden was still alive.
So then to read his article it’s not such a shock, in fact it makes sense and is pretty non-controversial: two governments lied about how they cooperated to get rid of a person neither one particularly liked.
Back when it was first announced that bin Laden had been killed, the conservative pep-rally chant was that Obama was taking credit for something he didn’t actually do, I’m not sure there’s anything in Hersch’s story to feed that idea, but I’m sure Fox News will find an angle to exploit here.
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The term of art, I believe, is “Bunch of Hooey.”
At one point that spring, Pasha offered the Americans a blunt explanation of the reason Pakistan kept bin Laden’s capture a secret, and why it was imperative for the ISI role to remain secret: ‘We needed a hostage to keep tabs on al-Qaida and the Taliban,’ Pasha said, according to the retired official. ‘The ISI was using bin Laden as leverage against Taliban and al-Qaida activities inside Afghanistan and Pakistan. They let the Taliban and al-Qaida leadership know that if they ran operations that clashed with the interests of the ISI, they would turn bin Laden over to us. So if it became known that the Pakistanis had worked with us to get bin Laden at Abbottabad, there would be hell to pay.’
That sounds reasonable. Has Al Qaida activity increased since 2011?
Easier to make sure they’re all dead.
There’s a certain point when killing off the co-conspirators becomes a bigger conspiracy than the original conspiracy.
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The claim is extraordinary because he was the world’s most wanted man for over a decade who was all-of-a-sudden killed in a daring raid. Withholding evidence does not negate anything extraordinary about it.
If it was claimed they’d found D.B. Cooper and showed no evidence, that too would be an extraordinary claim.
Any claim that requires faith, not evidence is extremely dubious.
True enough, I’m not claiming he did die in a Saudi Hospital, I’m just using that as an example. He may well have died in a Saudi or Pakistani prison in solitary, he may have been squashed by an army bus, neither of which require a huge cover-up conspiracy nor a great many witnesses.
@mindfu
“There is no evidence to suggest that things happened any other way”.
There is a distinct lack of evidence whatsoever, for the official story too. Nobody’s going to be collecting any reward money at this stage of the game, and without evidence, just your say-so, you’re going to have a hard time being believed. If it were that simple, I wonder why we weren’t swamped with whistleblowers from the Gulf of Tonkin incident for instance.
@petzl
“You’re ridiculous.”
You’re gullible.
@spejic
“This wasn’t any helicopter. It was one that was beyond secret - not even dreamt of by the public press”.
It was a modified Blackhawk MH-60 (designed in 1972, built in 2009). All that was gleaned from the surviving tail piece was a a few additional stealth-fins (ie several inch-long wings) and a new paint, possibly contributing to radar absorption.
Hardly one of the latest tech-toys.
Here are two key places your analogy breaks down:
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There were whistleblowers and leaks. That’s how we know about the incident and the other information in the “Pentagon Papers.”
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The North Vietnamese Navy never publicly verified the U.S. claims about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. By contrast, Al Qaeda HAS acknowledged the reality of the central claim about Bin Laden being killed by U.S. forces in Pakistan. Why would America’s sworn enemies help spread our propaganda? Or do you think all of Al Qaeda is an American Black Ops exercise?
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This is all well and good, unfortunately it’s all circumstantial.
We’re arguing what-ifs, and all I’m asking for is some simple evidence.
Do you believe that Hitler is dead? (And not just from old age?) If so, why?
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The best thing about conspiracy theories is that you don’t need any proof. Since you can just say “it’s a cover up!”, you can keep on believing in your conspiracy forever.
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There is an excellent article on Vox about this subject. Seems to be many. many questions about this specific investigative report from Hersh.
But when the will to keep the secret is strong…
That again, is an issue without a definitive answer, although likely, considering he was completely surrounded.
What evidence would you accept as credible or definitive? If the U.S. government was willing and able to conduct a fake raid, blow up a helicopter and enlist dozens or hundreds of co-conspirators to cover up the nature of Bin Laden’s death then surely they could Photoshop together a few snuff photos and fake a death certificate.
This “Bin Laden didn’t actually die in that raid” theory is starting to sound like a non-falsifiable hypothesis.
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Frankly, I’m willing to look credibly at any evidence they care to provide beyond an extraordinary claim. Any at all… anything… something.
Besides, the burden of proof is not on me to disprove the raid, but on the claimants who make the statement in the first place.
Clearly that isn’t the case. There is evidence supporting the claim that Bin Laden was killed in this raid, including but not limited to
- Witness statements from the people who carried out the raid
- Independent media reports supporting the fact of the raid itself (if not directly witnessing the death of Bin Laden)
- The statements of U.S. congresspeople who were shown graphic photographic evidence of Bin Laden’s body
- Acknowledgement of the event from Al Qaida themselves
Now, clearly you don’t think any of this evidence is good enough to convince you, and that’s your prerogative. However, you have also repeatedly dodged the question of what evidence would be good enough to convince you that Bin Laden was killed in this raid. Until we establish that I don’t see any point in continuing the discussion.
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jeez, now the torture just sounds… sadistic and unneccesary.
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