Simple comic explains how not to derail conversations about gender identity

I’m on your side for a different reason. Gender and race are extremely contentious issues and the matter is far from settled on even basic aspects of these topics. When someone basically says “go google the topic until you agree with me on everything,” they’re being stupid and lazy themselves, as well as intellectually dishonest. If I go in blind and start googling trans issues and descend deep into whatever click-hole I end up at, there’s no reason to assume that when I come back from “educating” myself that I’ll be any closer to agreeing with or even understanding any given trans person’s position on a given topic.

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Not quite, as pictured in the comic it is a random passer by interrupting a conversation two people are having to interject questions.

That is kind of uncool.

On the other hand, criticizing the earlier BB article “how to talk about Caitlyn Jenner without being an asshole” is completely germane (mostly, it was TL;DR) because the whole point of that is to reach outsiders.

If two people are having an inside baseball conversation because they are baseball fans, they are in no way obligated to stop that conversation and explain baseball to you because you just walked by and were suddenly curious.

Basically, unless it is an explicit effort to educate “the unwashed masses”, everyone needs to just go about their damn business. Who cares. This does not affect you. Move along.

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Huh.

I had some of these very things done TO me by (I assume) trans people on this very blog last week.

Is it a one way street?

I think at least some of it is a holdover from orientation or non-conforming gender presentation being classified as a mental disorder. At least the AMA no longer lists either of these as mental disorders, but I think there’s a lot of people that still see LGBTQ as suspect in this way. (Even some of those in the medical field, unfortunately.)

I also have somewhat mixed feelings about transitioning being offered as a solution to all gender dysphiria, if only because it so strongly reinforces both the binary gender model and gender expression. For some of us, we can figure out that we don’t really fit with the gender we’re assumed to have at birth, but if the medical solution offered is to make us into yet another model which we don’t fit, it’s not much of a solution. (Besides, I’m actually happy with the my OEM parts, even if they don’t always conform to how I’m presenting at the time. I just don’t possess the same view of them as most people with these parts.)

A lot of my younger friends who are non-gender conforming don’t really see transitioning as right for them. I’ve actually learned a lot about myself from conversations with them. I’m not sure where I’d be if I had sought a medical solution earlier in my life for my concerns, but I’m glad that my friends helped me figure it out.

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This conversation is going just about how I would expect it to go… Keep up the good work, fellow happy mutants. Together, we’ll change the world.

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You mean this comment?

I have been verbally abused, spat on, attacked ten metres away from a busy major road on a sunny summers day, had bricks thrown at my windows, death threats posted through my door, enough attempts to break into my house that I used to sleep with a large spanner under my pillow. this lasted for a year (OK, 363 days) before I escaped, I was advised to move away by the police who felt that they couldn’t stop my abusers before they did kill me. I still have PTSD and am a very light sleeper ten years later.

What more needs to happen to me, or the many other trans people who experience similar, before asking you to read a 1000 word document doesn’t make me too sensitive?

As for “Treat people the way you’d like to be treated”, that can be interperated in many negative ways. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are homo/transphobes who would justify their actions as what they would like to happen to them if they stopped being heterosexual and cisgender.

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And this is exactly why we need these sorts of conversations and why this article is so important. No one should have to go through that shit. No one. It should unacceptable to treat anyone this way but it’s still common for many transpeople today.

I’m sorry. Have a hug from me. Other than point people in the direction of articles like this, and calling out shitty behavior, I wish I could do more to fix the world. Because the more I look at it, the more it seems it’s a broken place.

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Basically the old people need to die off, and the kids will be more tolerant. Long term (even medium term, really, if you look at acceptance of homosexuality from 1980 to 2020) this system works. It has always worked.

This is why the idea of very long life scares me. If people regularly lived to 200, 300 years old then social change would be a lot slower because the old people in power would carry their biases and prejudices around longer. Logan’s Run had the right idea! Term limits for everyone!

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that’s somewhat harsh. speaking from my mid-50s i’m a lot more tolerant than the average youth to young adult, both in my state and nationally, but i also understand that my tendency to get more and more liberal as i age is not normative. i think there are probably individualized reasons why living much more than 150 would probably not be useful and if longevity meds or procedures became available i suspect that after an initial fad those people who chose it would report enough horrifying elements to it that it wouldn’t last long.

There are liberal old people, but not many. The statistics always bear this out: the younger you are, the more liberal your social views. So social change is largely a function of time. Not that there isn’t stuff you can do today, there is, we can and should, but old powerful people with no term limits (literally or figuratively) would be disastrous for social change.

I, for one, am happy to hand the mantle to my kids when my time comes. Who wants to live forever?

I dunno… I’d like to think that’s true, but there are still an awful lot of racists, homophobes, and transphobes lurking about, and not all them are old people. In a rational, progressive world, that could be true, but I’m not sure we live in that world.

I don’t think it’s that simple, though. Social change has to be made, it doesn’t just happen. Our evolving attitude on race came not just from the long arc of history, as King said, but from people pushing for change. You have to teach your children to be more open minded, because there are plenty of people willing to hand down their outmoded, backward views. Is there less of those people, sure, but it’s not just a function of times moving on, it’s a function of proactive movements of people pushing for change. History only matters in terms of how we make it, not just because stuff happens.

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I think it has to do with growing intellectually weary with age. We know that conservatism is linked to low IQ, and I’d bet hard money that the ones who stay liberal with age are the ones who stay mentally active: artists, educators, creative types and voracious readers.

Once you hit the point where you’re tired and don’t don’t care enough to think about much outside your own sphere, the simplistic answers of conservatism seem comforting.

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First, look at the stats I cited. It is a statistical fact that support for gay marriage trends strongly (declining strongly) with age. That is not my opinion. That is cold, hard, data. It is science.

If you have kids, one of the first things you learn is that kids do not want to take your shit – they want to think and do and make decisions for themselves. It’s kind of fascinating how that works. Almost like social change, and pushing back against the old order, is baked in. Which is kind of fucking awesome.

You can probably indoctrinate and brainwash your kids if you work hard enough at it, but it is amazing (to me at least) how good kids are at carving out space to decide for themselves about things and not taking your words and beliefs at face value. They always question and push back.

Ok, I will shut up now before I break into a rousing rendition of Whitney Houston’s “The Greatest Love of All”, but suffice it to say I am bullish on the future of the human race, and the rate of social change.

Thanks so much for reminding me of the TV character Alex Keaton from Family Ties.

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Yes, that one and ensuing discussion. None of those people would volunteer to have done to them what they did to you despite what your suspicions are. Mindysan says it should be unacceptable to treat people this way. She’s right. So why are you doing it too?

I’m just not going to read an owner’s manual on how to talk to people, let alone memorize it. I’ll continue to treat everyone the way I always have: politely and with respect, and if I make a mistake I’ll apologize and try to correct it. Frankly, that’s all you have a right to ask.

All this nattering on about having a “conversation” is really just justifying the practice of angrily shouting down everyone who doesn’t conform to your ideal in every single way. It has nothing to do with an exchange of ideas. And I’ll say the same thing I said last time: You do not have a right to live in a world that never gives you offense. Acting offensively because you were offended is also not justified. It is just penny ante bullshit revengism. You do have the right to walk away from that which offends you, which is what I’m doing right now.

You are acting neither politely, nor with respect. If that’s your goal, you are failing terribly at it and maybe ought to listen to others who are telling you you’re failing. On the other hand, if your goal is to sound rude and disrespectful, you are doing a stellar job and need to keep it up.

You keep saying this, but keep bringing the subject up.

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I have no doubt it’s more acceptable now and more young people are more open to it… my point is that this did not just happen. It was years of struggle by the LGBT community to work their way into the mainstream consciousness in a way that wasn’t a completely mockable stereotype. If it’s more accepted, it’s not because times change, it’s because people made them change.

Sure - they have their own minds and kids do rebel, but I’d argue that’s still a social process, not a default process of time. the whole concept of a teenager and all the cultural baggage that goes with it, is a 20th century idea that is tied to the rise of modern modes of consumption. See for example:

Kids having a time in their lives where their social relations are primarily with their own age group helps to contribute to this process, and this was really only possible in the way we think of it, in the modern era.

So, my think is that these things don’t happen, they are made to happen. You might have the statistics and I won’t dispute them, but it’s important to acknowledge how these statistics are made historically. they don’t just happen.

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Maybe, but what about this? It happens to trans people too.

Doing what? I have not called you anything abusive while you called people who are well documented as being at risk of abuse too sensitive (In your first comment too!). I certainly haven’t done to you any of the other things that I mentioned.

You are failing miserably, you have been nothing but agressive and abusive from the start both here and in the older thread. It doesn’t look like you have ever commented on any other transgender topic since BBS started, why has this one got you so upset?

That doesn’t work when transphobic behaviour is accepted by large sections of the general public. You just walk from one incident to the next until you finally decide to take a stand.

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Hang on! I’ve got it. You are derailing a thead about how not to derail conversations about gender identity.

Nice troll.

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You sure about that?

The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.

I can dig up more ancient – literally – examples if it helps :wink:

I am pretty sure kids telling their parents to fuck off is as old as time itself. And that is a good thing when it comes to social change. Well, except for Alex P. Keaton.

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