You know, I hope, that the noun/verb bleach means more than just a “dilute solution of sodium hypochlorite” (Wikipedia)???
4 Likes
It’s like clockwork on any thread about racism, too.
11 Likes
You’re a far more patient person than I am; at this point, I am through “doing the heavy lifting” for people of privilege, and especially for those who tend to be intentionally obtuse.
11 Likes
What you wrote gave me that impression. You made some noises about how it’s maybe a little bad, but mostly excused it, and went out of your way to deflect the racist aspects.
As was pointed out, it was racism in Japan before European contact, and it remains so. Why deflect that it’s racism there if you aren’t making a general deflection about racism?
5 Likes
Which dimension is enlarged? I had heard from a local that flatter noses were considered more attractive. Are they broadening them? Is my source wrong? Is it a regional thing? Am I asking too many questions?
ETA: My apologies for grabbing onto something so trivial in the midst of these more important points. Can’t really focus on bigger issues at the present. Sorry,
1 Like
I’d also argue, though, that much of japanese imperialism (including against the Ainu in the modern period, ie from the Meiji restoration on, which were a direct result of the Perry expedition) were shaped by globally circulating ideas about imperialism and race. We can’t skip 150-60 years of history to go back to a period where Japan was isolated, especially since that was only the case in japanese history for about 220 years or so (Sakoku). And part of the reason japan closed it’s borders was because of Europeans arriving and trying to convert the Japanese to Catholicism and getting involved in the ongoing conflict between war lords. This covers some of that period prior to closing down borders:
And BTW, the Dutch maintained a trading post there for the entire period of Sakoku.
10 Likes
Beauty should not be defined by the exterior. It’s the interior that counts.
I think we’re close here so I’ll try again. People treated differently because of skin color is effectively the definition of racism.
Most of that discrimination is perpetuated by people who do not consider their judgement to be a question of race (regardless of country). You’re arguing that because people in some Asian cultures don’t consider their discrimination against dark skin to be racial, then it is not racial.
The couterpoint that is trying to be made, is that it is still racial discrimination regardless. It isn’t that I (or others in the thread) don’t understand there is a history of discrimination based on skin tone that is independent of western influence, its that trying to address that separate from the western traditions of racism actively hinders trying to adress discrimination based on skin tone in either culture
6 Likes
I’m arguing that class and race are not separate, but intersect, and that our modern understanding of race and class are byproducts of the colonial era, which only recently “ended”. The popularity of skin whitening creams are a part of that history. Again, people can scroll up to the book I posted, which had an article precisely about this specific history, and maybe get a copy from the library or buy it on amazon or as an ebook. 
11 Likes
Obviously some miscommunication, because I completely agree with this. I was trying to make the point to @Dioptase1 that the classism and racism aren’t separable. If my post reads as contradictory, then it wasn’t well written.
10 Likes
13 Likes
No, I get your point and agree, I was attempting to piggy back off of that and offer more clarity on the issue.
9 Likes
I mean, it absolutely is. It’s still weird, though, that even in Europe it’s the tall blonde look (mostly for women but to a certain extent also for men) that’s considered the pinnacle of beauty, even though the Scandinavians and the Dutch haven’t brutally subjugated other peoples (in Europe!) for about a thousand years. And we know medieval beauty standards were different, so it’s not like it’s a hangover from the Danelaw (which wouldn’t explain why the same beauty standards exist in other, continental European countries anyway).
I guess it mostly must go back to 19th century race “science”? I have no other explanation, really, but that would be pretty wild.
1 Like
Yes. And imperialism, too. Ideology deployed by European empires abroad most certainly boomerang back to the core and is used there. The British working class were created alongside the race-based caste system of the new world.
And Ireland was England’s original colony, where much of their policies there were later deployed elsewhere (such as the policies during the Famine were employed during famines in India later):
It’s not. It’s just factually accurate. The popular history we are taught often bears little resemblance to what actually happened in the past and how that shapes our present, in part because we are educated by the exact same institutions that have a stake in the current order of things.
13 Likes
You don’t have to be the directly subjugated to be enthralled by the wealth and power of imperial powers and want to be more like them and less like the people they oppress. In fact it is probably easier.
3 Likes
Yes, but my point is that the Dutch and the Scandinavians, who actually are tall and blonde, weren’t the imperial powers - those were the English and the Spanish, and the Portuguese, etc…
So how is it that that particular Nordic look is what spread around the world as an ideal and not the ruddy-cheeked British Farmer or the aristocratic Spanish lady? Again, my hunch is that it has to do with (mostly German) “race science” of the 19th century that lumped all northern Europeans into a “Nordic race”. Of course the most prototypical specimens of that “superior” “race” would then be seen as the pinnacle of beauty.
PS: I am aware of Dutch colonial history. My point is that it didn’t happen in Europe and yet their look spread as an ideal
I recall people telling me it predates European colonization in Asia and India, that there like in Old Europe having a pale complexion meant you weren’t forced to do manual labour. Growing up during the suntan boom and bust meant lots of pundits writing about how complexion standards change. Africa was often avoided in this discussion, as was pre-Columbian Americas.
4 Likes
To be fair the English and Spanish colonists definitely favored “fair” and also totally used caustic and toxic chemicals to keep up a light complexion themselves prior to 19th century race science or fetishes for Scandinavians.
11 Likes
And of course, that had a class dimension as much as a racial one, because fair complexion meant you were elite, as @fnordius noted above. But it became aspirational among the newly empowered bourgeoisie, too, hence, a commodity. It was likewise sold in the colonies to the colonized elite.
It’s all connected. 
14 Likes
It’s usually called “colorism” when it is not focused on race. It’s well known in POC communities but is more of a subset of racism.
3 Likes
