Soylent bars recalled amid gastrointestinal mayhem

[redesigned]

@JamesBean

For some reason soylent is really good at bringing that out in people.

I have nothing against soylent or any meal replacement specifically. There are ingredients in Ensure that are crap, same with many of the meal replacements, but none of them are across the board as bad as soylent. If you want to eat soylent without understanding the ingredients, that is fine by me, I’m not stopping you. I’m just pointing out how horrible the ingredients are.

@JamesBean

I’m sorry but it is not my job to prove you right. If you can’t be arsed to do anything more to back up your claims than express your feels, I’m going to dismiss you as an overly emotional child.

wow. no need digress to unwarranted personal attacks. Lets keep things more mature, k? i get that you have never studied nutrition, so you don’t have the ability to look at the forms of minerals and immediately know for yourself that these forms are not usable forms, but if you looked up any of them, even just one, it would be quite clear that is a cheap unusable industrial byproduct rather then a preferred form for supplementation. The healthiest thing in soylent is the soy protein isolate, and that is the cheapest source of a balanced amino acid profile. It isn’t my job to educate you about nutrition, you think my claim is false and are refuting it then the onus is indeed upon you.

@JamesBean

what makes it “the lowest quality source?”

bio-availability, absorption rates, in other words how usable it is by your body.

@JamesBean

So then you could name one, right? RIGHT?

NO, when i said all of them i meant it, i just didn’t want to list them all, Boost, Lean, Ensure, GNC Total, Isosure, Svelte, EAS, etc…i couldn’t find one that wasn’t…WAIT…Actually I did just find one marginally more expensive…because it is all organic ingredients: Orgain

@JamesBean

Soylent’s not perfect. But it is definitely better than Ensure if you are a normal, healthy person.

No, it really is much much worse. On what basis is it better?
The only way in which it is better is less sugar, which i think is great, but the lack of one ingredient a healthy product does not make.

@JamesBean

I think that’s unlikely.

No need to guess…i count 0 references to soylent in pubmed, and 23 clinical trials that included Abbott brand Ensure, although in a number of them ensure wasn’t the only replacement being tested. Most meal replacement brands test via clinical trials so that they can navigate the approval process in hospitals and nursing homes for when solid foods are not an option. They are a true meal replacement.

Again, I’m not at all against meal replacements, and yes many of them contain some questionable ingredients, soylent just stands out based on its listed ingredients, and yes i was referencing the latest formulation. Which makes sense since Soylent is also the only product not formulated by a team of nutritionists.

[JamesBean]

Ensure

More expensive per calorie than Soylent. As already shown. Provide an actual link to prices if you are going to make an assertion about pricing. This is like pulling teeth.

@redesigned

if you looked up any of them, even just one, it would be quite clear that is a cheap unusable industrial byproduct rather then a preferred form for supplementation. The healthiest thing in soylent is the soy protein isolate, and that is the cheapest source of a balanced amino acid profile.

That’s funny. Of all the sources you could have chosen to prove your claim about low quality, the one you did chose was the one you think is high quality. Maybe you don’t know how this works?

[quote]i count 0 references to soylent in pubmed, and 23 clinical trials that included Abbott brand Ensure[/quote]Please. I may not have “studied nutrition” but I’ve seen plenty of bullshit citation counters. That’s the trick snake-oil salesmen use: count citations regardless of applicability or results. For all we know, the participants in every one of those 23 trials died.

It isn’t my job to educate you about nutrition, you think my claim is false and are refuting it then the onus is indeed upon you.

Really? Are you seriously going to do the “I didn’t make a claim, you made a claim” cop-out? Who are you? Trump?

[Ryuthrowsstuff]

@JamesBean

No, it is not the most important thing.

Yes. It is the most important thing. Your body runs on calories. If you don’t consume any calories you die. Much faster than you will acquire diabetes or go down due to a vitamin deficiency.

@JamesBean

As in sugars per calorie and protein per calorie.

@JamesBean

And don’t forget fiber.

You might notice that I called out both as negatives.

@JamesBean

Pricewise, Ensure is also more expensive

I can’t tell because your link is borked. I compared liquid ensure with liquid soylent 2.0. Because that’s a one to one comparison. Tossing in the dry powder is cheating. Because powdered versions are always cheaper. Less ship weight and cost of water. Powdered Ensure exists. And in regards to sugar content versions for diabetics with low or no sugar.

@JamesBean

But if you can provide a citation for those tests, I’m all ears.

You’re also deliberately ignoring my conclusion. Even commonly used, tested, doctor recommended meal replacement liquids are not considered healthy or safe as a major portion of your diet for long periods of time.

@JamesBean

are a normal, healthy person.

There isn’t anything special about Ensure that makes it for disgusting olds and devious sick people. Its based on the same concept as Soylent, but made by people who actually know what they’re doing. If it was bad or insufficient for regular healthy people it would be even worse for the infirm. More over the stuff is used in all sorts of situations. Its common in post surgical care regardless of age (usually due to nausea). And the US military issue it to troops to up their calorie count. An acquaintance of mine experience a lot of weight loss while stationed in Iraq. Nothing wrong with the 19 year old soldier. The ~3500+ calories a day from regular field rations simply wasn’t enough for him to maintain a healthy weight given the level of physical work involved. Extra rations including a 6 pack of ensure a day fixed that.

@JamesBean

I will, however, prove you wrong.

He was rather specifically talking about those vitamins and minerals. Its fairly simple to “prove some one wrong” when you don’t even address the claim they’ve made.

[redesigned]

@JamesBean

Please. I may not have “studied nutrition”

Its okay, not every one has, the creator of soylent brags about not having studied nutrition.
I have. Most meal replacement companies hire teams of certified nutritionists to formulate their products.

@JamesBean

Really? Are you seriously going to do the “I didn’t make a claim, you made a claim” cop-out? Who are you? Trump?

I see this conversation is going nowhere. That obviously, so obviously, isn’t what I’m saying. ~sighs~ Again lets refrain from schoolyard insults, this is the second request.

Soylent lists their ingredients, as do all meal replacement manufactures. No need for anyone to speculate at all, be rude, or demand any proof of anything. Anyone can look at the ingredients, and look up any they aren’t familiar with themselves, and make their own determinations based on the facts.

@JamesBean

I’ve seen plenty of bullshit citation counters.

The number of studies I found in less then 1min was only listed because you doubted ANY had been done, which is in direct antithesis to the entire nature of the meal replacement industry. I wasn’t citing any of them, only pointing out that whether or not there have been studies doesn’t have to be blind speculation or a baseless assumption. same with whether or not a mineral is the most or least bio-available form or where it is typically sourced from doesn’t have to be blind speculation. none of this conversation needs any speculation whatsoever, it is all easily accessible information. If you don’t know, why argue so?

@JamesBean

So, far from being “the lowest quality source” for protein, Soylent’s namesake is actually one of the highest quality sources.

Like i said the soy protein isolate is the highest quality ingredient they use, and i pointed out that it is the cheapest and lowest quality way to get a complete amino acid profile. i pointed this out, because i already knew all of this. yes, for a single source of proteins it has a very complete amino acid profile, which is why it gets the 1.0 rating, but it contains much less BCAAs or free peptides and the ratio of those amino acids aren’t in as good of a balance ratio for humans, but it is super cheap and complete. This is why it is the source of protein for MOST meal replacements, and the source of protein for all cheap protein powders, but all the high end ones use protein source from whey/casein/eggs and typically use a blended source, because they aren’t just ticking all the boxes, they are making sure the balance and source is the optimal one. Again, it is the cheapest lowest quality way to get a complete amino acid profile, that is not in contradiction to being one of the best single source food sources with a complete essential amino acid profile (the 1.0 rating), this is why it is the source used by most meal replacements. Soy protein in fine, hence my assertion that it the best ingredient in the list.

Please see the limitations section of the PDCAAS link.

@Ryuthrowsstuff

There isn’t anything special about Ensure that makes it for disgusting olds and devious sick people. Its based on the same concept as Soylent, but made by people who actually know what they’re doing.

exactly this! teams of nutritionists and clinical trials for most products formulation. As you pointed out the creator of soylent brags about not being a nutritionist and making a checklist of the bodies needs and finding the cheapest way to check off each box. I guess if you don’t understand nutrition that well or bio-availability and are a “bio-hacker”, whatever that is, this approach might seem to make sense, unfortunately it doesn’t lead to the highest quality product as we’ve both pointed out.

@JamesBean

For all we know, the participants in every one of those 23 trials died.

That is silly. Do you really think the FDA would allow hospitals to use a product with 100% lethality rate? Or even allow such a product to be sold? The entire point of these studies is to determine the products safety and measure markers such as bone density, muscle loss, metabolic markers, mineral excretion, etc. The type of things you want to be damn certain of if you are replacing actual meals, as not everyone is using them as a quick breakfast alternative.

[Ryuthrowsstuff]

@JamesBean

More expensive per calorie than Soylent.

Again You are comparing a bulk purchased powder to a premixed liquid in small retail packages. that is not an adequate or accurate comparison.

@JamesBean

So then you could name one, right? RIGHT?

Walgreens brand meal replacement shakes.

https://www.walgreens.com/store/c/walgreens-nutritional-plus-shake-vanilla-8-oz-bottles-6-pk/ID=prod6252083-product

Even with you fixing the comparison by rolling with a bulk ordered powder vs the liquid we were using as a standardized comparison. $.000321/cal vs $.000386/cal. Even the cheapest possible rate for Soylent can be matched or beat with 30 seconds of google.

http://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Signature-Complete-Nutrition-Shakes-8.2-oz---32-pk.product.100211293.html

Costco brand. $.000354/cal. For the bulk purchase comparison.

[L_Mariachi]

I know you’re arguing about individual-serving liquids, but how do those enormous jars of protein powder aimed at bodybuilders stack up? I feel like I’d be in better shape just from carrying them home.

[Ryuthrowsstuff]

I wouldn’t know honestly. Don’t go in for these sorts of thing, though I’ve used the meal replacement shakes when too ill to eat solid food or after dental work. I know the soy protien is the cheapest, but the egg/whey protien is considered better (if you aren’t vegan) as @redesigned laid out.

But protein powder isn’t exactly the best comparison. Meal replacements are basically protein powder plus carbs and multi-vitamins, among other things. So its more of an apples and oranges thing. Protien powder alone wouldn’t be an adequate meal replacement, which is why you see people tossing it into smoothies. Looks like it runs around ~$7-$15/lb for the whey and less for soy. . In terms of calories? Looks like is 110cal per ounce regardless of source. so $.000397/cal - $.000852/cal for the whey. I’m sure it can be found cheaper by not going with bodybuilding websites that become the first hits on google’s “shopping” tab. Its surprisingly close to the cost of some of the meal replacements at the low end. Given that the protein is probably the most expensive bulk component, a meal replacement is effectively “cutting” the protein with lower cost ingredients. Bringing the price down. So you’d expect it to be higher, but that’s not much higher.

I chose to compare the pre-mixed liquids because its a nice clean comparison. You eliminate (or can) other variables by picking two products that are as identical as possible. Like package size, ship weight, packaging materials that can contribute to cost. If you could buy Ensure powder (just to stick with that brand) in lots of 7 15oz bags as a minimum purchase size, you’d probably see it being cheaper than the soylent. Given that comparisons of the closest two forms (14oz liquid to 8oz liquid in comparable total package size) shakes out that way. But that doesn’t exist. You get 14oz cans. Sometimes sold in 6 packs. And most other brands don’t seem to do powder at all. The added weight in shipping (from the factory, not to your house) means they’ll have a higher cost. Bottles and cans are more expensive than bags so that adds to cost. And of course water (and any needed stabilizers) cost money too.

ETA: Oh and from this:

Food energy | Nutrition labels

It looks like protien is as calorie dense as Carbs. But IIRC high school science and that whole ATP cycle thing right. It’s not necessarily an adequate primary source of food energy. Because it requires you to burn more energy to break it down, so you net less actual energy in the end. Extra step in the cycle or some such. And you need a lot more water to do so, which is why you’re thirsty after eating a steak.

Could be remembering that wrong though.

[redesigned]

@Ryuthrowsstuffis is correct that protein powders aren’t formulated to be meal replacements. The weight gainer powders are a lot closer and contain a lot more calories, but still don’t contain all the micro-nutrients needed. It is easy to add a lot of the micro-nutrients with a simple multi-vitamin/mineral and or some green powder though.

If you aren’t replacing all your meals and just using them as breakfasts a few days a week that distinction becomes a lot less important. combine either with a multi-vitamin and mix it with whole milk instead of water and you have a pretty good start towards a much healthier meal replacement, especially if you are adding a green powder and berries to the mix.

@Ryuthrowsstuff

It looks like protien is as calorie dense as Carbs. But IIRC high school science and that whole ATP cycle thing right. It’s not necessarily an adequate primary source of food energy. Because it requires you to burn more energy to break it down, so you net less actual energy in the end. Extra step in the cycle or some such.

that’s correct, good memory. also… fats are the most dense, typically 1.5-2x the calories. too much sugar carbs at once aren’t usable and will spike your blood sugar unless combined in proper ratios with fats and proteins.

@L_Mariachi This powder is a LOT better then Soylent, but even it has a few of the cheaper minerals. Still, it is much much healthier then soylant and has much better ingredients.

ESA makes keto meal replacement for those on a keto diet, which is very cool.

[JamesBean]

@Ryuthrowsstuff

Again You are comparing a bulk purchased powder to a premixed liquid in small retail packages. that is not an adequate or accurate comparison.

Way too much TL;DR (too long; don’t respond) and vacuous claims from both of you to bother with point by point rebuttals. But on this one point: comparing powdered soylent with liquid ensure is the mistake you made. My original post referring to a meal costing about $2.50 was in reference to the cost of powdered soylent - 1/3rd of a 2000 calorie diet as shipped in one bag. You went with liquid. Liquid soylent is about convenience, not cost and consequently they charge a premium for it.

Furthermore the original post about “chi-chi organic shakes” referred to costs one-third to one-half that of soylent. Even the generic shakes you’ve cited are just marginally cheaper (17%) and are still not remotely close to being nutritionally balanced - containing tons of sugar, no fibre and significantly more vitamins and minerals than the RDA recommendations for a standard 2000calorie/day diet which means long-term consumption risks accumulation. Ensure and its ilk are suitable as supplements, not replacements.

[Snowlark]

Your engineer friend was born a millennium too early:

[anon6955837]

There’s some strong feelings about goop in a glass.

[Ryuthrowsstuff]

@JamesBean

and are still not remotely close to being nutritionally balanced -

Our entire point is that neither is soylent. Pointing out that these shakes aren’t the thing we said they’re not does not prove that soylent some how is.

And as I expressed elsewhere I, before you became involved, compared liquid to liquid. In the most similar purchase volume I could manage to find. The absolute cost of a given option. Doesn’t much matter. If that were the case, I could “prove” any given option was technically cheapest by buying the individual componants by the ton and mixing it myself.

It’s the comparison between the two prices that can tell you where cost actually lies. To do that you need to eliminate as many unrelated variables that add to the cost as you can. And you do that by selecting the versions of the product that are most similar. Not simply the cheapest options possible

Beef is not cheaper than pork because the per pound cost of a full loin primal of beef at Restaurant depot is less than the per pound cost of a single pork chop at a particular supermarket. Beef is more expensive than pork. As you can see by comparing un trimmed loin primal to untrimmed loin primal.

But I guess if you can’t “disprove” an argument you can just tl;dr it away. And demand people cease to discuss things on a discussion board.

[redesigned]

If you have time, and are willing to do the work and have the nutritional know how, building your own is far superior (as with most things) especially if you start with a sold base and add variation. Variation being the key to making sure you aren’t getting too much or too little of anything. the body is amazing at adapting so long as you don’t deprive it for too long of anything or take an excess of anything for too long. the morning smoothy with fats and protein mixed in is enjoyed by many for reason. still, replacing meals should be the exception if possible, like breakfasts on work days, not every meal every day, unless you are being closely monitored by a physician or doing so out of medical necessity.

Just in case anyone is interested, I’ve decided to list what I use personally…

While quite a bit more of a pain to mix up, if I have to skip a meal I use a combination of:
4 scoops Swansons Goat Whey (protein)
1 scoop CapraGreens powder (minerals and carbs and micro-nutrients)
1 scoop CapraMineralWhey powder (minerals and and carbs and micro-nutrients)
2 Tbs Coconut Oil or MCT Oil (fats)
I blend the above with whole milk, and often some mixed frozen berries and yogurt.

With that I take:
1 pill Shilajit Mineral Extract (85 minerals in ionic forms)
4 pills Desiccated Beef Liver (All essential minerals and several vitamins in highly bio-avaialbe pre-methylated forms)
1 pill high quality mixed EFAs of your choice
4-6 grams of vitamin c (assists with mineral absorption)

In total this equals ~$5.75 per serving and nets you 2.5x the calories of soylent and you really get an abundance of every micro-nutirent in the most bio-available forms, note: $5.75 is before the optional berries. so when comparing price, the very highest quality ingredients and sources can be roughly on par per calorie cost if you are willing to do some work to formulate and mix your own meal drink.

i find my body uses the goat whey a lot better and it doesn’t taste goaty and is worth paying a bit more for the extra nutrition. Of course that is a pretty primo blend, about as good as it possibly gets, one can get by on a much less primo blend. heck, in university i subsisted on ramen for a stretch. Also, I don’t endorse any of the above companies specifically, they are just what i happen use personally.

this is a good breakfast replacement, and likely much healthier then most standard breakfasts.
it wouldn’t be a survival shelter food, or stationed overseas, for that you’d want a shelf stable premade powder, or premixed drink packs.

[daneel]

I think I’ll just have a pop tart.

[redesigned]

nothing beats the burning molten filling to wake you up in the morning…well except maybe the cuts and abrasions one gets from captain crunch!