Wait, what? How is that not an argument for the would-be conquerors of the world?
If another group has the “right” to invade your sovereign group, doesn’t that just put us back to might-makes-right square one? What’s the point of self-determination if another group can decide your fate for you, all with supposed moral justification?
Would the United States be morally justified invading China? What about our invasion of Iraq? There’s certainly plenty of human rights issues to address in such totalitarian regimes, and, indeed, your argument is actually pretty close to the one used to justify the Iraqi invasion, as we were going to bring "democracy’ and “freedom” to the nation.
This isn’t a defense of the Confederacy, mind you, just an argument that this oversimplification becomes kind of absurd, quickly.
Playing out a secession scenario today, in somewhere like Texas, might give the world a Trumpian dystopia armed with nuclear fucking weapons.Are we supposed to watch that happen, because it’s their “right to secede”?
There are countless infrastructures such as embassies, consulates, CNMV, INM (meteorology), customs, air trafic control, Tax Agency that account for some 5.000M€. Obviously economies of scale work in favor of larger countries here.
Better-off people pay more taxes, so naturally territories with more better-off people contribute more money. This is a basic social solidarity principle true to all civilized countries. Even so, Catalonia, with the 3rd highest GDP in Spain, only contributes an excess calculated to be around 4%, which does not seem very outrageous, specially when the fiscal deficit between Barcelona and the 3 other Catalan provinces is calculated to be around 21% (http://files.convivenciacivica.org/Informe%20Las%20balanzas%20fiscales%20dentro%20de%20Cataluña.pdf). Is Tarragona unfairly profiting from Barcelona? Is Romania unfairly profiting from Italy within the UE? South Carolina from California? … All in all, there will always be regions that will ask for more money; it happens everywhere.
The Catalonian government, by their own wish and strategy, has decided that their important but NOT bigger than 48% or so support allows them to attempt a “no Spanish law can touch me” gambit. And as I dont think they are complete idiots (although very much assholes), the only reason for that is to provoke the central goverment, because no matter what goverment would it be, no government is going to take that lying down and say it is fine. By provoking a strong reaction, they can get the issue more polarized - polls put outright independence at about 30%-40% but if you combine that with the people that want more self-rule is close to 80%, so the game is to make those jump to the separatist camp and… who knows what.
But on the other side they have the PP, a group composed of thieves and Francoist nostalgics (and most of the time, in the same body), who instead of finding what is the minimum response possible to this and find ways to resolve the situation politically, is by temperament and electoral calculus very much into responding in the worst posssible way. They know they cant get votes in Catalonia (they poll about 7-8%) but they can rally their support elsewhere by playing tough to the “damn Catalonians that want to destroy sacred Spain”. Given how they are in the middle of being judged by widespread corruption this is a way to movilize their base and stop erosion.
And here we are, the rest of us, watching the country go down the drain in this ridiculous spiral of idiocy by both sides, trapped by their electoral needs while nobody has the possibility to make them shut up and start a clear adult path to see how we can solve a POLITICAL issue without degenerating into an escalation of rebellion and repression, so far more on the legal side than anything else, but without any exit so far.
I’m very tired of all this shit. Is like that Spider Jerusalem bit about being asked to vote and all around you everybody wants to vote to stab you.
BTW, our great idiots from the PP are now trying to “export” this to Euskadi, Navarra, and every other place they dont rule. Because Spain is IN DANGER by all the BAD ANTISPANIARDS that live in NOT CORE SPAIN BUT SPAIN and are weird and DONT SPEAK SPANISH or something.
If they can get half of Spain hating the other half but voting for them, they dont fucking care.
I agree with you. Secessionists are not in majority. So… why don’t making the referendum official, quebec-style? That would defuse these guys for several years (and, no, I’m not being ironic, I honestly think a scotland style referendum would defuse this for at least until the next big crisis).
Let me theorize: Republicans/federalists may want to vote yes, given the current political situation in spain. I assume you count the “catalonia is a region” as firm no and “catalonia is a autonomous comunity” as probably no, while “catalonia is a state in a federation” is a probably yes, and “catalonia is an independent state” is a firm yes.
So a secession vote may win by the skin of the teeth if federalists think they get a better deal by voting yes.
Other than the fact that the Constitutional Court rule it illegal (not surprisingly, since like 99% Constitutions, does not contemplate secession), I guess there is always the risk of populist post-truth taking a lead role. 5 TV channels, radio stations, subsidised press, school texts that avoid mentioning Spain at all cost … make it hard to fight independentist ideas. “Organic” support for independentism was traditionally around 15%. Even as recently 2010 it was only 25%. So it seems reasonable to think that current support for independentism is not very deep, as deep feelings do not change in such a short time (see graph opinion polls provided elsewhere in these comments page).
Yet, some of the independentist falsehoods have eventually proved themselves (except for super die hards), such as EU membership for a seceded Catalonia or the fact that companies will stay (like it happened in Quebec, large amounts have moved their fiscal address out of the region, including Catalonia’s major bank, CaixaBank) https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/16/inenglish/1508139705_469301.html despite autonomic president Mas loudly claiming that “none” of the banks would leave.
You mean that right now is not the case? On both sides? Or are you implying that PP and PSOE are not populists?
Because last time I bothered reading local news, the TVE workers were complaining that the news section has been used quite unfairly to transmit only pro PP messages. And the reasons I don’t bother reading local news is that there is no neutral press or TV in Spain, Seriously, we suck at that. Shall we talk about how PP pressured la Sexta to change its political discourse, threatening to cancel its TV license if it didn’t comply?
“Organic” support for independentism has always hovered around the 50% mark. What changed is the people that traditionally wanted for Catalonia to be an independent state inside the spanish federation saw their dreams crushed by the PP butchery of the statute. The economic crisis didn’t help either. Most of these people decided that if Spain doesn’t want us independent within, maybe is better if we are independent without. And Mas’ strategy worked wonders on these guys. The increased hostility of the central government (don’t want independentists? don’t say you have to “españolizar” catalan kids) have also helped. I have to say the press (on both sides) have also helped greatly. There’s nothing like reading an Intereconomía article to inflame my secessionist spirit (at least I want to secede these guys from public life).
Yet, I agree with you, current tendency can be reversed, but requires an effort from the central government. And by effort, I don’t mean sending a puppet of the state to control the region while the piolines patrol the streets like a police state. I mean for the goverment to say that Puigdemont doesn’t want to talk, because wow, that’s a serious case of selective hearing when I heard one. I haven’t seen someone more desperate for a line to be thrown than Puigdemon. And I’ve seen Titanic.
Frankly, I hoped for the PSOE to seize the opportunity to handle this situation more maturely than the PP: After all, PSOE voters are not known for being catalan-haters, and PSC still has some relevance in the Catalan politics, at least at city level. But they seem intent to watch the situation unfold, even happy.
And yes, the central government has to move. And yes, again, by move, I mean talk, not invade. That’s a surefire recipe for secessionists.
Certainly Ukraine gives no grounds for optimism, especially as there is a story that NK’s nukes are actually from Ukraine. Ukraine is pretty much a basket case.
But as @LutherBlisset observes, just about any other example of secession is likely to be a bad one in this case. For one thing, a very big gorilla in the room, if Catalonia secedes I doubt that American businessmen will get much of a foothold. There’s no political or financial capital from “régime change”.
(Your violent revolution against the legitimate government, our régime change.)
Very clearly said, I am truly amazed of why so many people don’t understand that simple facts you tell here. And, one does not need to be a Rajoy voter (I am not one) to defend the Constitution.
Can’t make up my mind about this independence movement.
On the surface, it’s a culturally rather liberal region vs. a conservative central government, to the point of the central government sending the Guardia Civil (of francoist infamy) to beat up voters, and the independence movement (apparently) encompassing many leftist groups and movements. Everybody with an insight into Spanish history (who’s not a fascist) can’t help but sympathize in some way.
But then, on the other hand, this also seems to be a case of economic nationalism, where the richest region in Spain wants to break away and leave the rest of the country to their own devices, without really caring what the rest of Spain thinks, or what the constitution says.
Also, whoever is calling this a revolution, could you point me to the revolutionary program? Because Puidgemont doesn’t exactly strike me as a social revolutionary. If all that is to gain here is yet another bourgeois petty state, why should I support it?
It’s called a “revolution” because the wheel turns.
Yeats:
Hurrah for revolution, and more cannot-shot!
A beggar on horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
Hurrah for revolution, and cannon come again;
The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.
You shouldn’t. You should support negotiating for a legal and pacted referendum and for the ceasing of the pressure the central government is unjustly putting on the protesters.
For the independence itself, is to each own and unless you’re living here, I don’t think it will matters much
Buuut, if we were talking about the hypothetic case everything goes topside turvy and for some extrange reason Catalonia manages to secede without spilling blood and everything is ok (flors i violes, we say here). There is no real guarantee PdeCat is going to win the elections after the fact. ERC and PSC have more possibilities, with Units Podem or EUa as support.
I hope not. I don’t mind when people disagree with me. It’s even possible for me to be wrong, at least in theory.
Have you never noticed how some topics seem to bring a torrent of brand-new single-issue members? That would not describe you at all, so why identify with them?
