☭ Sup Marxists? ☭

I think you assume everyone experiences life in the same way as you do. When there is a cop with a gun pointed at you, there ACTUALLY IS someone with power over you…

As if leftist are the only ones who preach it…

Which means what exactly?

Except that people have railed against this historically - at no point have people ever accepted being treated as animals. Pointing out that power works in different ways among different groups of people, and that different groups of people have different choices available isn’t totalitarianism… it’s looking at reality and trying to define it. Trying to define the problem and proposing solutions are two different things. There is nothing wrong with looking at the world and trying to figure out how to fix the world we live in.

Sadly, I think you are making assumptions about me and what I feel we need to move forward based on my view of history.

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So… does that mean you can’t provide any evidence of this massive leftist cabal?

I was so looking forward to learning about the Bizzaro Koch brothers. :frowning:

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What’s weird is that it’s not that he’s not paying attention, it’s that the right wingers spent the 80s and 90s rebuilding their ideology away from the Nazi/KKK model and toward what they view as the more successful Communist model. The reason William Ayers was a thing? The right wingers all read him and tried to take community activism on as a model while also viewing Ayers as explicitly Communist. Ayers’ model is still stronger when applied to socialist causes and without being cobbled together like something misread out of a recipe book, but (outdated) socialist and communist ideas about message and activism were viewed for decades by the right wing as something to co-opt. Which is why so much of the messaging from Fox sounds like an idiot’s half-remembered retelling of 1984.

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Yes, that would be sad. Sorry if that seems to be the case. It might be because you sometimes put things in universal all or nothing terms. I personally try to avoid making all-inclusive blanket statements. Perhaps this comes down to differences in opinions, or merely communication styles.

Hardly! The left version might be something like: “For the good of your fellow people, please submit yourself willingly to this only negligibly unfair system, and we promise that nobody will take advantage of you.”, while the right version could be: “This is the natural order as interpreted by us, but if you work hard enough and kiss up, we’ll let you hold the whip for a while.” What I meant was that no large-scale solution will ever be fair. So striving for a popular form of emancipation believed in by millions holds the seeds of its own demise. The largest groups which can handle direct democracy have a population of several thousand at most. Anything larger has a significant demographic as captives, taken along for the ride.

By crypto-country I mean using network technology to offer a system for anybody to register any group they need. Not unlike how crypto-currencies can be used to decentralize money. With countries, traditionally, they are “recognized” by using force to control a geography, and a population. Then they offer their authority to “recognize” kinds of families, currencies, corporations, etc which they feel further their interests. If I try to marry three people, they refuse. If I try to devise a company which is not a financial entity in their sense, they refuse. If I try to draft a town charter with a non-hierarchic structure, they refuse. So the idea is to recognize the legitimacy of people to create their own social organizations without government interference. Such charters are limited by size and impact. If they grow beyond a certain size, they dissolve or split, like amoebas. A reputation system can work towards maintaining feedback based upon influence, coercion, and ecological footprint. This means that you can do whatever you like, provided that those you are doing it with agree, and inverse to the amount that it affects other people. It also reduces any incentive to coerce others, because your freedom to mind your own business is dependent upon recognizing the same for others. Such groups could be families, trade syndicates, thinktanks, city states, or practically anything else. They could be seen as “feeds” or subscriptions where a person might be a member of anywhere between zero to hundreds of such groups.

I have had guns pointed at me. Sometimes I have been carted away. Sometimes I have left them looking through the alley to find where their gun went. Sometimes I have simply explained that I am unarmed, and asked if they thought that shooting an unarmed person was a brave thing to do.

My perspective on what sort of power this may demonstrate is a bit philosophical. I think that guns are not a matter of essential power, but rather an attempt at control. The tricky consideration is whether a person who strives to control another truly has control even over themselves. Someone fighting over a social role, territory, property, or even their desire to survive - is mostly a slave to their instincts. They hardly even control their own life, never mind mine. And I cannot truly control my life or decisions if I worry about people killing me over them. And honestly, some people have tried in earnest to get rid of me. Even if I need to decide between obeying others or being killed - this is a choice I can make instead of having it made for me. And it has never come to that. The short version is that when people can be made to fear for their lives, they can be coerced into doing anything, and they are. This is why the masses allow themselves to be kept in check by police, despite vastly outnumbering them. Everybody can rush them to take their town back - but somebody might be killed - and they each selfishly hope that it won’t be them, so nobody does anything!

I am not encouraging reckless or risky behavior. Not having a desire or instinct to survive doesn’t mean that you can’t, and live a long, wonderful life. It just means that you have taken control over the impulse. This enables a person to choose their priorities and assess their risks consciously, with full participation. And also to more fully consider their agency as a living person, and how it can be compromised. If you can’t direct your life and make meaningful decisions, how much “life” does that leave you with? And how much can you afford to bide your time before it is wasted?

Mostly, in daily life, it is a matter of not letting people “push your buttons”. Companies and government have done a lot of research into how to manipulate people’s pleasure and terror centers to elicit desired behaviors. Survival panic if you “buy into” the wrong headlines, orgasms if you vote right or buy a certain thing. It’s hardly surprising that most people worry a lot or feel manipulated. But rewards and punishments are very simplistic motivations, such conditionings can be avoided or bypassed with some clarity and willingness to confront your deepest motivations.

It would have been a lot easier to act upon this all twenty years ago than it is now. Likewise, it might be a lot easier to act upon this now than twenty years hence.

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Your Tolstoy-length rants are failing to communicate much of anything to anyone here.

As I scan this lengthy tirade of self-insulating doldrum my eyes can’t help but glaze over (actually I was briefly reminded of Ted Kaczynski’s prose style, then I tuned out).

I challenge you to stop bloviating insubstantial generalizations, and instead express a concise opinion, or even better a citation accompanied with axiomatic logic. Better still can you do it in 3 paragraphs or less?

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I was merely replying to the points Mindysan33 remarked upon. Hopefully these contribute to the discussion between them and myself. If you like to counter or refute anything specific that I wrote, go right ahead. As for offering you a citation to convince you to think for yourself - sorry! I am not up to the task.

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Yes, brevity is so difficult. It forces one to rationally organize their thoughts into easy to communicate snippets.

Contradiction and hypocrisy is so much easier to sustain when it can be lost in a stream of consciousness rant of epic proportions.

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Sorry, no, I find “snippets” inadequate for much by way of clarity or depth. But I do at least try to be as unambiguous and clear as I am able. Feel free to snark away with your innuendo about how what I wrote was inept. But I would rather that more people post regarding the topic at hand, instead of making personal remarks. I wanted to participate in a discussion - not to deliver a monologue.

“Mercifully, popobawa4u then contradictingly and hypocritically retreated, back to the vast ocean of murky verbiage and muddled meaning from whence it came.”

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I first chimed into this conversation when you criticized Mindysan for “fabricating” a statistic when she poked fun at the idea that there is a significant/influential group of militant leftists in our society.

Since you put such high regard on providing proper evidence for one’s claims, I asked you for some specifics about these militant leftists you so eagerly refer to in your various posts. Instead of providing any evidence to substantiate the claims you’ve made about the growing movement of militant leftists, and their damaged psyche which depends on having oppressors to hate, you gave us something else:

Instead you provided us with a lengthy “the world as I see it rant”. You made more claims without evidence, and even introduced us to the oh so enlightened concept of “post-ideological” politics (your realize humans are inherently biased right? to claim you are beyond ideology is egomania embodied).

Back to back you gave us 2 wonderfully meandering walls of text filled with claim after claim, but little in the way of evidence. No links to articles, no references to studies, hell you couldn’t even be bother to appeal to our emotions with a convenient anecdote. Just lengthy narrative without justification.

But you’re not having a monologue right? You’re “contributing” to the conversation. Sure that contribution isn’t based on facts, but you have ideas! And it’s clear how important your ideas are to you, even if they have no basis in reality. They are comforting, they reinforce the world view you’ve already chosen and that’s what really matters.

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I have explained (at exhausting length?) that I am not interested in influence, or populist coercion. I don’t care how many people do anything, but I am skeptical if anybody claims to know the exact number.

But I didn’t make any claims! Humbabella mentioned that US leftists were “anti-gun”, I just replied that this would not apply to militant leftists. It just seemed like an obvious deduction which was missed. I told you that neither knew nor cared who this might refer to. Just like I might not know who specifically is running a particular company or political party at the moment, but I know that they exist. If somebody mentions a magazine to me, I am not going to ignore them unless they know who its staff are. And no, my remarks about Stockholm Syndrome were not about militant leftists, they were about people from all over the political spectrum who complain but refuse direct action.

We can assume that we know what all humans must be like, which would again be without evidence. Post-ideological politics might sound a bit contradictory, I didn’t say this without humor. Even if many humans are biased, organizations are not biased in and of themselves, they have human biases only to what extent they are utilized by humans. They are not unlike algorithms, they reflect only what bias might be coded into them from the start. Even calling this “politics” might be somewhat misleading, since it bears hardly any resemblance to anything else by the term. It is a homeostatic program which is beyond human control, and performs only basic administrative functions.

What precisely did I claim? It is a project I am working on. I think it is interesting, but others may disagree. How, who, and why would anybody else “justify” my work? I am happy to discuss and work with people as equals, but I do not answer to or front for anybody else. I have explained at length that I - myself - and trying to make a system which functions solely so that anybody else can realize their own system. Frankly, I am not trying to “convince” you of anything.

Sounds like a personal problem! I don’t claim to have a world view, I can use quite a few. But they simply don’t include much of the certain social framework which many take for granted. Yes, my ideas are important for me. No, they are not comforting, other people’s reactions to them cause my life to be distinctly uncomfortable. Which, either way, is not the point.

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That’d be George Soros, right? Because there’s nothing more “socialist” than an anti-communist “business magnate.”

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Since when has a few paragraphs turned into Tolstoy-length rants? And at least he’s not resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Now you are bloviating.

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I met one of them the other day. He used to be in the Angry Brigade :smiley:

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So, Snow Crash? :wink:

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Like unions, but not limited to employment, in other words?
(n.b., I’m not taking the piss, that’s just kinda what you’re describing looks like to me; high-tech anarcho-syndicalism. Which beats authoritarian capitalism plus whatever the bullshit du jour of whichever bit of the world one happens to harken from is, of course).

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Didn’t I cover that with “even then that’s probably too simple.”

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If George Soros has managed to reconcile positivitism with the Frankfurt school…

Whoa…

Maybe Soros really is God.

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I rather like Orwell’s comments on gun control.

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer’s cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.

Another:

Our slogan should be “Arm the people”. […]
Firearms. Everybody should have one, and know how to use and clean it. It might just save your life, but more importantly there’s nothing that demoralizes an enemy soldier more than being shot at.

Then again, I live in Austin TX, where you see Priuses with gun club stickers.

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If you go to Switzerland you’ll find lots of guns and they are definitely a symbol of Switzerland’s freedom. There is a culture of responsibility around guns, and that’s definitely rooted in a belief in the necessity of defending the nation.

The NRA’s view of guns is that guns are for everyone for any purpose and Americans should do whatever the hell they want for themselves, without any responsibility to society.

When I was younger I used to think the gun control was a step towards ending gun violence, but I don’t really believe that gun control makes a big difference either way anymore. As I am now fond of saying, “Guns don’t kill people, a culture that puts the freedom of individuals to do whatever they want with guns ahead of social responsibility kills a surprisingly large number of people compared to its peers in the developed world.”

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Yes, that’s pretty close. Preferably with some low-tech extensions for those with other needs.

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