and there we have it.
Discussion over, really.
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Yeah, badly written.
I guess perhaps I was asking how much you value the American ideal of āFreedomā above everything else. Do gun owners look at (largely) disarmed countries like those of Europe and think those poor suckers are controlled by big government, they just let all their freedoms go?
Maybe - is the freedom to carry a gun more important than the freedom from worrying about getting shot?
Iāve lived in the US for almost 10 years now, still getting to grips with the cultural differences between the coastal areas and those weird bits in the middle 
Seems to be from what Iāve read that thereās a growing divide and some (esp. libertarian) positions are more extreme than they ever used to be. The hostility to any kind of societal solution to (any)things seems really odd to me.
Freedom is all relative. Even in Soviet Russia you could say anything you want - once.
But in general, I think people should be able to do what they want - even dangerous things. I am not advocating total anarchy, obviously we need some rules (some libertarians will call me a statist). But when it comes to guns I just canāt fathom why we encourage MORE restrictions when clearly you can only do so much with laws. The fact is nearly everyone who owns a gun hurts no one ever in their life.
No I donāt think the UK or others gave away all their freedoms. Though I find it funny that totalitarian regimes restrict their civilians from owning guns. Maybe that alone should be a clue that having the freedom, even if you donāt use it, is a good thing.
And while I personally donāt see the US spiraling into some hell hole, it was only 60-70 years ago this happened, and shit like this still happens in some parts of the world. Brutal!!! Drawings from the GULAG ā CVLT Nation
[quote=ādaneel, post:287, topic:71595, full:trueā]
Maybe - is the freedom to carry a gun more important than the freedom from worrying about getting shot?[/quote]
Well I donāt know where you live, but you probably wonāt be shot. Especially if youāre white and not involved in crime. If you do it most likely wonāt be by some libertarian NRA owner.
If I was your neighbor, would you fear me simply by my ownership? Is that rational? What if a person āworriesā about a person being black or Muslim? Are they being rational? Should something be done to ease their fear? Can anything be done to ease their fear?
I havenāt been all the way west, but in my travels the middle part has the nicest, most laid back people. YMMV. I too donāt agree with everyone who claims to have libertarian ideals. Some of them donāt agree with me either. But in general I am for people doing their own thing, consciously not discriminating, and trying to learn from each other.
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Probably not. But I donāt like my brother and sister in law concealed carrying, especially in my house, and it makes me a bit uncomfortable if Jr. ever needs to spend time at theirs.
Generally, Iām pretty laissez-faire. But I donāt understand the desire to have a gun. Iāve enjoyed target shooting, but meh. People say they need them for protection but donāt seem to want to support policies that might reduce the need for protection. Itās like they take individual responsibility over reducing crime in general.
I know a guy (from Texas) who told a story about how he felt able to confront someone attacking their girlfriend because he was carrying. Just seems like another world to me.
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Your brother and sister-in-law wear their concealed guns when they visit relatives? What kind of fucked up shit is that? Afraid Thanksgiving Dinner is going to get rough?
My dad had a concealed carry and used it. Legally even. Of course, he was also a pot dealer and would go meet shady people places. Heād bring his German Shepherds as well. Seemed rational but not a model for emulation in life.
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Well if that turkey aināt well-done enough ā¦ look out for zombie turkeys is all Iām sayinā.
They want to be that good guy fucktard with a gun.
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Ineffective in life? Get a gun and hope for a chance to use it!
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But most nations are, letās be aware of and clear on this, signed up to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
of which Article 3 says"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."
If we donāt strive for it, weāll never achieve it.
'Cos I like people to ask themselves if they support something just because itās a symbolic gesture, with no likely effect in the world of real things.
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Freedom is important. I think we see more progress by being as free as possible and leading by that example. Freedom fuels education and innovation which will better the world.
re: being active to reduce the root causes - How do you know that NRA members arenāt doing these things already? Most members I know are active and productive members in their communities.
Death threshold ā not sure there is. Violence is part of life for most or all living things. While we are getting better at not acting it out upon each other in ācivilizedā communities, I donāt think there is a point where it will be truly abated unless we become an enlightened monoculture.
Worrying about getting shot is just misplaced worry in most cases unless you live in one of the ābattlezonesā or their periphery. Should we have draconian gun control limited to the most at risk areas? Gun owners usually downvote this based on egalitarianism and eventual gradual expansion.
I donāt think the Libertarian view has changed much, but our society has continued to change and become more extreme so you get to see the far extremes which the hardcore Libertarian philosophy will take you to.
A lot of gun ownership does fall under the sort of talisman effect that āthis object will protect meā. That being said, people do protect themselves successfully with guns fairly regularly.
If you had a significant other being attacked by 2-3 others who had you both physically outmatched, what would you do? Would you want a tool that might help you end their attack?
They also just kill people pretty regularlyā¦
Your definition of regularly probably different than mine. In a country of over 300 million, the number of annual deaths that arenāt suicide or criminals killing other criminals is very small.
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I donāt, thatās why I asked. But there seems (yes, [citation-needed]) that thereās a correlation between NRA membership and Republican Party support, when the Dems seem to have more policies that would result in reduced crime. Itās like the way the Reps always say after a mass-shooting that it should be dealt with via better mental health care, but they donāt offer anything that would provide that, even if it was the cause.
Iām not actually worried about being shot at all (one reason why I donāt feel the need to have/carry a gun). I think I am at substantially higher risk in the US than the UK, although itās all relative - I donāt think itās a huge risk even here. That said, I feel a lot safer in Seattle than I ever did in Savannah, which had a ludicrously high murder rate, and where I heard gunfire near my house far too often for my liking. Still didnāt want to carry a gun, though. I preferred to avoid risky areas at risky times.
Suck it up and suffer the consequences, I guess. Try to avoid escalation and get through it. My preference would be for avoiding situations where that came to pass.
Nope. Maybe Iām a coward, too much of a pacifist, or maybe Iām too selfish, I donāt know. Iām not sure thereās anything Iād be prepared to kill someone for (hopefully Iāll never find out), and I donāt think I should carry a gun unless I was, I strongly suspect it would make things worse otherwise.
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I see youāre redefining what ākilling peopleā means since both of the above categories of folks are still people.
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Context is everything. Suicides are 100% the person making a conscious decision to harm themselves. You want to blame the tool they used? Furthermore, if one is suggesting to enact laws, one needs to focus those laws on each issue. Suicides vs accidents vs crime require 3 different solutions because they have 3 different causes.
Doctors and hospitals kill ~90000 people a year with āpreventable errorsā. Of course doctors are TRYING to help people. But if we just look at the surface number with NO context, one could be like, āZOMG, doctors kills 3x more people a year than guns! We should ban doctors!ā
So it isnāt redefining, it is analysis of context.
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I donāt think it makes you a coward, thank you for being candid. Hopefully none of us ever has to face any of that.
Iām not sure it is a republican thing, but because it is a really strong issue (to the extent of being the single issue) for some peopleās vote the republicans have latched onto it fairly strongly for sure. Being pro-2A and then having people assume Iām part of the religious right or a die-hard republican does give me the cringes.
I agree that avoiding risky places is a great strategy for minimizing risk.
It is true, I am segregating those deaths. Mister44 gave a much more eloquent explanation than I could have. Truly removing access to firearms would definitely reduce suicide completions and probably crime deaths as well.
If the tool in question makes it really easy to not fuck it up, then yes.
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If you want to fuck it up, choose another tool.
Yeah, because people attempting suicide are in their right minds.
You should conside an empathy transplant.
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I wouldnāt mind some extra hands.
