Texas passes draconian law limiting women's health care options

[fireshadow]

@Harry_C

The laws were amended based on new scientific information, in which it was claimed that fetuses can feel pain within about 20 weeks of gestation.

Citation please. This article argues otherwise: Fetuses Feel Pain at 20 Weeks, and 4 Other Anti-Abortion Myths – Mother Jones

@Harry_C

I do think that abortions should be extended for those who find out that their babies will have severe birth defects (like mental retardation). Or there is a great risk of death to the mother. I’ve always believed that there can and should be exceptions under strenuous cirucmstances.

The majority (some sources say ~98%) of abortions already happen before week 20 (and ~90% in the first 12 weeks). For those ~2%, don’t you think this law is going to make things much more difficult for them? Also, from what I have read (one link: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/21/opinion/my-abortion-at-23-weeks.html?pagewanted=all&partner=rss&emc=rss), fetal genetic defects are not necessarily visible before 20 weeks.

@dacree

Why is it a bad thing to require businesses that sell abortions as a for profit business to adhere to the same safety standards as an outpatient clinic? The standards are quite low and reasonable. I think women deserve a clean and safe environment.

Citation please. Also, how is being inspected once a year less safe than being inspected once every three years? http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/07/12/2290811/texas-abortion-clinic-safety/?mobile=nc

@dacree

As the procedure involves significant risk to the patient, why is it unreasonable to expect the doctor to have admitting rights at a local hospital? If the patient begins to hemorrhage, shouldn’t the doctor be able to rush his patient through admitting without having to wait on the ER to make that decision? I’ve worked in hospitals where getting doctors with admit privileges to sigh up was a major focus. Doctors who can’t get admit privileges at a local hospital may not be the best for the job.

Less than 0.5% of abortions result in major complications. http://www.acog.org/About_ACOG/News_Room/News_Releases/2013/Ob-Gyns_Denounce_Texas_Abortion_Legislation Also, are you really saying that a woman needs a doctor with her in order for the ER to admit her during an emergency?

You also seem to be implying that abortion doctors are refused admitting privileges because they are not good doctors. Do you really think that the refusal has nothing to do with the fact that they are performing abortions? Also, don’t admitting privileges come with requirements like living close to the hospital, admitting a certain number of patients per year (hard to do if your patients rarely have complications), or attending meetings? [Note: In general, the requirements for admitting privileges vary from hospital to hospital and also have different “levels” at a given hospital.]

@dacree

There are states with even more restrictive timelines but there doesn’t seem to be the same blowback.

The fact that other states have gotten away with this does not make it less of a problem.

@dacree

In another world, I can imagine women demanding clean clinics and vetted doctors from any business wanting to make money performing abortions.

You also seem to be really focused on “for profit businesses”. If these businesses are making so much money, why is it expected that most of them are going to be shut down because of the cost of upgrading their facilities?

The reality is that with the passing of these laws women are probably just going to go to black markets to get their abortions. How is that better? Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

[dacree]

Less than 0.5% of abortions result in major complications.

Oh! Well then, those ~5300 women who had major complications can rest assured that there is no need for improvement. Are you really going to argue that?

are you really saying that a woman needs a doctor with her in order for
the ER to admit her during an emergency?

That’s not how it works. If a doctor has admit privileges, they can call the hospital and have them admitted before even making to the hospital. People will be waiting to treat the patient. If they go to the ER, they have to be triaged, stabilized in the ER, and then transferred to the OR or the floor. That increased time may be the difference between life and death.

You also seem to be implying that abortion doctors are refused
admitting privileges because they are not good doctors. Do you really
think that the refusal has nothing to do with the fact that they are
performing abortions?

Do you have evidence to back up your claim?

Also, don’t admitting privileges come with
requirements like living close to the hospital, admitting a certain
number of patients per year (hard to do if your patients rarely have
complications), or attending meetings? [Note: In general, the
requirements for admitting privileges vary from hospital to hospital
and also have different “levels” at a given hospital.]
You seem to have argued with yourself on this one. It’s different at different facilities. Are you trying to argue that there is no need for a doctor who is vetted with the local hospital?

You also seem to be really focused on “for profit businesses”.

I focus on the for profit part because the reality of the situation is that these businesses are making money from women in a vulnerable position. These women often feel they have no choice but to accept the clinic as is but I feel that they should be assured of a minimum level of safety.

If these businesses are making so much money, why is it expected that
most of them are going to be shut down because of the cost of
upgrading their facilities?

I’ve seen these sort of arguments before. It happens any time we place safety or environmental regulations on businesses “No! You can’t regulate my business! I’ll have to close my doors if you do!” That’s a sorry argument especially since it never goes down like that. A requirement is placed on a business, that business is given time to comply with the new requirement, if they don’t meet the deadline they have to file for an extension, if they don’t make the extension they pay a fine and get another extension.

The reality is that with the passing of these laws women are probably
just going to go to black markets to get their abortions

You are going to use a border town flea market specializing in providing to the under/slave class of the US as a model for what will happen? Really? Those operations will exist no matter what happens. That’s a human rights issue that needs its own attention.
In any case, this bill won’t shutter a single clinic.

[dacree]

Now that is an excellent idea. If you are qualified to be a doctor in the state, you are presumably qualified to admit a patient.

[Ulysses]

It’s the dishonesty of these laws that really pisses me off: fetal pain; admission rights; zoning changes - all of these are just backhanded attacks based solely on religious or political aversion to a woman’s right to control her own destiny. Bible-thumpers can’t convince people that abortion isn’t necessary, so they use mendacious reasoning in an attempt to ban it. I say, what goes round, comes round, and there will be a reckoning for these liars eventually.

[fireshadow]

@dacree

Oh! Well then, those ~5300 women who had major complications can rest assured that there is no need for improvement. Are you really going to argue that?

Show that abortion is more dangerous than other medical procedures not done at surgical centers. Show that the politicians pushing these laws are also pushing laws to make pregnancy safer. According to this article (http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/data-show-that-abortions-are-mostly-safe/nYnbF/: “Pregnancy and childbirth were 34 times more likely than an abortion to result in a woman’s death, according to data from 2000 through 2011 compiled by the Department of State Health Services.” [Disclaimer: It is behind a paywall, so I can only read the introduction.]

@dacree

If a doctor has admit privileges, they can call the hospital and have them admitted before even making to the hospital. People will be waiting to treat the patient. If they go to the ER, they have to be triaged, stabilized in the ER, and then transferred to the OR or the floor. That increased time may be the difference between life and death.

Then where are the laws requiring hospitals to give admitting privileges to abortion doctors? If the doctor is being denied admitting privileges because of his/her qualifications, why is he/she allowed to still practice medicine?

@dacree

Do you have evidence to back up your claim?

Mississippi: Mississippi's Last Abortion Clinic Back in Court | Center for Reproductive Rights and Seven Hospitals Deny Jackson Abortion Clinic | Jackson Free Press | Jackson, MS .

Also: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/16/2/gpr160207.html (under “Mandating Links to Hospitals”)

@dacree

I focus on the for profit part because the reality of the situation is that these businesses are making money from women in a vulnerable position. These women often feel they have no choice but to accept the clinic as is but I feel that they should be assured of a minimum level of safety.

Some abortion clinics are already surgical centers, correct? Where is your evidence that they are safer than other abortion clinics?

@dacree

I’ve seen these sort of arguments before. It happens any time we place safety or environmental regulations on businesses “No! You can’t regulate my business! I’ll have to close my doors if you do!” That’s a sorry argument especially since it never goes down like that. A requirement is placed on a business, that business is given time to comply with the new requirement, if they don’t meet the deadline they have to file for an extension, if they don’t make the extension they pay a fine and get another extension.

So a federal judge went through the effort of blocking part of the Mississippi law that would have closed the lone abortion clinic because … ? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us/ruling-prevents-closing-of-mississippis-only-abortion-clinic.html?pagewanted=all&partner=rss&emc=rss

@dacree

You are going to use a border town flea market specializing in providing to the under/slave class of the US as a model for what will happen? Really? Those operations will exist no matter what happens. That’s a human rights issue that needs its own attention.
In any case, this bill won’t shutter a single clinic.

Other clinics have closed: Virginia Abortion Clinic, Busiest In State, Closes Due To New State Regulations | HuffPost Latest News

And other people have argued that abortion restrictions lead to dangerous abortions: http://boingboing.net/2013/07/15/a-gynaecologist-on-how-abortio.html

The governor of Mississippi has acknowledged that his goal was to shut down the state’s only abortion clinic: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/01/11/1434991/mississippi-governor-shut-down-clinic/?mobile=nc

And other politicians have shown no concern about women attempting at-home abortions: http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/05/14/11702049-mississippi-lawmaker-coat-hanger-abortions-might-come-back-but-hey

[fnordius]

For some reason, when I skimmed your post I thought you were making a comment about the Culture from Iain Banks’ novels and putting a slap drone on them.

Come to think of it, the GOP does seem to share a lot in common with the Affront (alien species that were featured in the novel Excession).