The most corrupt countries, 2013 edition

[Rindan]

@dman

Last time I was in the states I found it basically impossible to avoid institutionalized extortion at every turn. The culture insists it’s normal to require under-the-table kickbacks to all sorts of employees for all sorts of services and transactions.

I can only assume that you are confusing tipping for bribery. Tipping is not bribery. It is contract work. The person who serves you food gets almost nothing for serving you food. Instead, they are basically an independent contractor. They serve you food nearly without pay from the restaurant, and at the end you pay 15%-20% of whatever you spent to them. If they botch it up horribly or do great, you adjust up or down. If you refuse to reward your independent contractor with the accustomed tip, the punishment is that everyone thinks you are an asshole and said independent contractor (and anyone they talk to) is probably going to give you exceptionally shitty service if you ever come back under the assumption that you are an asshole who is going take their services for free. The reverse tends to be true if you tip well.

There are other cultural implications. Tipping is generally done with a little subtly in certain fields not because it is illegal or even discouraged, but because flashing around money and making a big deal of your tip is considered uncouth. It is all entirely above the board and the laws are written to reflect this. This is why you can legally pay a waiter almost nothing, but you have to pay someone who picks up trash minimum wage. The places where you can tip are very sharply defined both culturally and by law. You can and should tip a waiter knowing that it is legal, but you will get tossed in jail if you “tip” a government official or police officer as it is utterly and completely illegal.

I’ll give you that it is a bit archaic and obnoxious, but it isn’t bribery. I would happily toss the system and just roll the price into the cost of the food as other nations do. However, you are confusing your extreme and apparently total ignorance of basic American cultural norms and laws for corruption. It is just the way the culture has chosen to reward certain jobs. Other nations have different cultures around money. In the US you don’t haggle over most things. You just pay the price on the tag. In some countries, you haggle and are considered the fool if you don’t. That isn’t bribery either, it is just how another culture pays for certain things. Don’t like it? Don’t use the independent contractors that work for essentially nothing who operate under the assumption that you are actually going to pay the cultural standard rate for their services.

[petzl]

I find it interesting (well, sad) that Russia, which overthrew Communism, is more corrupt than China, which is outgrowing Communism.

[Rindan]

I don’t think that perceived corruption and actual corruption are all that different. I bet your friends from Romania think that having to bribe a border guard is corrupt. I think they realize it is corrupt and go along with it because that is just how the system works and there is nothing to be gained and a lot to lose if you fight it. Everyone one world wide agrees that bribing a government official to do their job fairly is corruption. If you are giving or receiving payments illegally, essentially everyone agrees that that is corruption. Doing it anyways, even happily doing it, just means you are a rational person who is getting by in the ways that you can.

Don’t get me wrong, there are cases where the lines between what is and is not corruption blur. Is a legal campaign contribution by a business corruption? Is an expensive but legal dinner bought for a perspective business client corruption? What makes these cases edge cases is that they are legal. We might argue over whether or not a legal campaign contribution is corruption, but everyone agrees that an illegal campaign contribution is clearly corruption.

The corruption that is sucking the marrow out of the developing world is stuff that we all agree is corruption. Everyone agrees it is corrupt to have to bribe a police officer to not harass you. Everyone agrees that having to bribe a politician or an inspector to let your business that is follow the laws faithfully operate is corruption. Everyone agrees that having to bribe an official to get documents that you are legally entitled to is corruption.

When India or Russia is red on that map and the US or Germany is green, it isn’t because the India or Russia have lower standards for what counts as corruption compared to an American or German. Those people in those nations perceive more corruption because there truly and honestly is more corruption by basically everyone’s standards.

[dman]

I understand what you are saying, and have worked in service industries around the world and had similar discussions before - your phrasing of it as “contract work” is well-put.

@Rindan

It is just the way the culture has chosen to reward certain jobs. Other nations have different cultures around money.

This is a good point of yours. It is a cultural norm in some places and not others, This behavior seems natural and obvious to you, just as having to give baksheesh to a policeman in order to get on with life may be normal in other places.

Imagine I’m travelling, and I wish to purchase a service. The posted price is $25. I hand over exact change and the person at the desk just waits expectantly. A local kindly nudges me and advises that if I actually want something done I should pay another $5 or it may take forever. I thank them for this information because I’m in a hurry. “Oh, you’re in a hurry, better make it $10 and then you will be served even faster then the other folk.”

Whether, and how frequently this happens, and whether it’s happening in a hotel, a post office, a restaurant, a rental agency, a visa office, a bar, a school, or a police station just depends on the culture. It’s the same sort of transaction. Cash-direct-to-the-agent goes into pocket instead of the establishment they are nominally paid by and working for.

I’m well aware that the simplest excuse is about the minimum wage loopholes. That’s not untrue, though it’s a post-hoc effect, not a cause. I’ve also had long conversations where locals will vehemently point out that a desk clerk in India may be so badly underpaid that they are socially expected to make up their income though cash donations from the public just to get by. If that desk job was in a city planning office, many westerners would call it corruption while to the locals it’s just a conventional ‘tip’. At the personal worker level, there’s no difference between that and the waiter at a restaurant doing the same.

You can redefine things and could say that the guy at the visa office is also just doing “contract work” by picking up an extra few dollars in the hand to hurry through my passport stamp. And it may be socially justified because he’s underpaid. And maybe that would just be a different cultural perspective. And yes, if I travel to that country I accept it and reluctantly pay it, in the same way I do in the US.

From my distance, they look like the same thing, just a difference in habit for when it is or isn’t appropriate (and sometimes backed up more or less by local laws that reflect local convention), but it’s not a difference in kind of behavior.

[AliceWeir]

so lovely that you have both defined what other people perceive and have scaled it all out so neatly, and all - but it did say ‘perception’, which means yours don’t qualify as being superior to anyone else’s. Perceptions are, by definition, not objective.

As a matter of fact, the business with Romania (and some other Eastern European nations) was not thought to be a bad thing. In Romania, in particular, the wage was so low and skilled workers leaving the country so quickly that it was seen almost as a gratuity just for showing up. There was no resentment. But on that same issue, my friend had grown up prior to democracy taking over, and was fairly thrilled with the present situation there. At one point, we watched the Clinton impeachment hearings together, and my friend kept trying to shush all the the hooting and hollering and swearing going on amongst us. I had to explain that we can actually do that here. To my extreme embarrassment, I later had to explain why his employer had removed money from his pay without permission (Social Security). He thought THAT was incredibly corrupt and just couldn’t get over it!
And I could not/would not defend it.

(I asked the other question of Sashi because he is Indian and would know far better than anyone else.)

You see why your perspective doesn’t rate with me any better than mine with you? (You apparently think legalization removes stench, and that there is far less of it going on than I have observed.)

You could get roughly equal quality survey results by asking people all over the world about how much they perceive bacon as lovable. It’s meaningless. You can’t even define ‘bacon’. Canadians will eat stuff I would consider not-bacon and an utter waste of pig. Most observant Jews and Muslims don’t even consider it an edible thing at all. Many places have no concept of bacon whatsoever.

But, even ignoring that, the very idea that a single worldwide survey could even be done in all the languages that would be required without damaging the results is ridiculous - it would be impossible to do all the translations without shading the very meaning of the questions and skewing results. (Example - Spanish. Major language group, too many regional variations to even ask it a single way.) And if you asked all in one language, you skew the demographics by demanding knowledge of 1 language, and then probably still blow it with regional variations in usage (English is not the same across borders, nor is Hindi.). But any way you go - you still get utterly crap data. (In case you ever wondered why WHO doesn’t do these kinds of surveys. Same problems, and a few others. )

It might have been interesting to ask people all over the world to define corruption. At least then we’d have some idea what various people think of as corruption. But otherwise? Not happening.

[Rindan]

@dman

From my distance, they look like the same thing, just a difference in habit for when it is or isn’t appropriate (and sometimes backed up more or less by local laws that reflect local convention), but it’s not a difference in kind of behavior.

That is my entire point. It might be known locally that you have to bribe the building inspector if you want to pass, regardless of the quality of the building, and it might be local custom to go ahead and do it. The difference is that this is seen as corruption even by the locals. The corruption report is built upon people’s perception of corruption. Russia is red while the Germany is green because Russians think that their nation is incredibly corrupt and Germans don’t. The difference between perception and reality in terms of corruption is small. Everyone agrees what blatant corruption is, and everyone hates it. This isn’t tipping vs not tipping or haggling vs not haggling. This is making your governance utterly dysfunctional or not. A building inspector that passes or fails based upon how much you bribe him is doing literally nothing other than stealing money without providing even the pretence of a service or increasing the public good.

Developing nations with high levels of corruption know it fight to stamp it out. Both China and India are for example right now engaging in active political fights to try and reduce corruption. Just because you pay a corrupt official doesn’t mean you like it. You either resent the unjust law you have to bribe to get around, or you resent someone stealing your money without providing a service. Just because you realize that your success or failure when dealing with a government agent is based purely upon your bribe, doesn’t mean that you are not pissed about a complete failure in rule by law.

Corruption, as everyone in the world understand it, and as shown by this map is a bad thing that destroys rule by law, and renders your government inept. It isn’t a cute local custom like tipping or haggling. Edge cases are fun to talk about, but when a bribe determines right and wrong and whether or not the laws, just or not, are followed, the people of that nation lose.

[dman]

I’ll agree entirely with that.
The point about it just being “as seen by the locals” is valid to this map today (as I understand it).
My own observation is more along the lines of an outsider looking at a practice that I see as corrupt but the locals have absolutely no problem with - as in the Asian business salesman examples.
I’m not saying that the map is wrong, or even that the US is “corrupt by their own standards” - just that this one habit (at least) is corrupt by my standards.

@Rindan

when a bribe determines right and wrong and whether or not the laws, just or not, are followed, the people of that nation lose.

Indeed! And many people go straight to government as an example of real corruption.
But business-level kickbacks are also a thing, and may be indicative of the overall cultural acceptance of this sort of thing. and where that country may land on a chart like this that used a more ‘absolute’ scale of what is corruption.
In my country, theft as an employee (such as a “good tipper” being rewarded with a free round at the bar) will get you fired. And that’s maybe an indicator of why we are at the very top of the list…

[AliceWeir]

Yes, I get that what we saw was a display of what local people think of their own situation. But, as you just pointed out - ‘corruption’ can be defined differently by different people and in different situations. And I didn’t see ANY report of the actual survey, itself. So, we don’t even know how the question (s) were worded or what exactly got asked. That IS the stuff I worked with for this government (US) for several years, and I got face full of all the arguments daily for years on end. I’m not an amateur at this - own national awards, yada-yada. (Which is not to say I actually like that business much - but I do know it very well.)

There are probably 100 ways to create bad survey data. But when an organization announces it has an agenda, then shows you a graphic representation but tells you nothing of how the data was produced? All that says to me is, it was presented in the best-possible way to support the org’s own agenda, and is most likely 99% bs. Even otherwise-straight organizations will play these games, and even with quite decent data. This government does so literally all day, every day - which is the source of a great deal of my own personal cynicism. It’s mainly a matter of ‘lies, damned lies, and statistics’…but with pretty pictures. Before you know it, a bad survey hits the media, and you get a new ‘everybody knows’ truism based on bs. It’s not nice…but that’s how the funding game is played, be it .biz or .gov. It’s simply NOT hard data. It’s an opinion survey - and those are the very easiest to play with.

So…sorry. This one just didn’t score well with me AS survey data.

[Shash]

@AliceWeir

Shash - I don’t know Indian politics well at all. But maybe you can comment on this: when my son goes to Hyderabad or Chennai to visit sub-contractors, they come up with lines of greeters and elephants and what amounts to a parade with all kinds of favors and entertainments. That is what most Americans might see as a corrupt practice. It’s actually outlawed for government officials and contractors. But there, it seems to be simply seen as good manners and showing appreciation for the business he brings to them. Do you think I got the general idea right? Or did I miss something about the way local culture views it?

Within limits, you’re pretty much accurate. It’s just as much a part of the landscape as spicy food and archaic formal English. Two basic reasons; one, we Indians love showing off our country. And two, there’s a cultural imperative to treat guests as well as you can. The Hindu custom is “treat the guest as (a) god”, and even if you’re not religious, this definitely rubs off on you. The further away someone is from, the more you have to pamper them. They’ve come all that way to see you - yes, you. Won’t you do the minimum to make them feel wanted? Finally, there’s also a certain colonial hangover in treating especially American/European guests like kings.

I can offer anecdotes - when I first started working, we had some partners over from abroad, whom I worked with. That Friday, my boss calls me in and asks “what are you going to do with XYZ this weekend? They’re alone in a new place as your guest. Don’t you want to be with them?” Of course, we ended up going out with them…

Technically and culturally, this is seen as completely separate from business per se; if things don’t work out business-wise, the Indian side should not take it amiss (though they’re often likely to, of course). It’s not a request for favours, just cultural imperative. So it’s not viewed as corruption per se.

The rules are a little strange and somewhat unwritten. For example, a night out on town where the host/company picks up the tab is fine. A two week vacation in Goa is not. Direct cash gifts are definitely out of the question, while a small memento/keepsake is allowed. My boss, for example, gives people wooden elephants.

[AliceWeir]

Ah! That makes sense, then. Thank you so much! (I do have a couple of those elephants, myself, lol.)
Last time he came back from India, he was just blown away at the level of wealth and luxury attached to the tech business in those cities. Sounds like business is really booming there.

I do find it a little difficult sometimes to get a clear sense of how such things are seen in India, because we are here, and usually, even if the house is filled with people actually from India and there is one of our Hindu/American mash-up holidays under way, they are living here now for the most part. And, everybody jumps in and out of English/Hinglish/Hindi/Punjabi constantly, so I think I probably miss the most intimate expression of some of it - just as they often don’t follow a lot of our joking around or odd colloquialisms. I often think it must be very difficult for them, as they are all so attached to being ‘proper’ and leaving the right impression, while we are more attached to being casual - or at least, appearing casual. What you or I might understand in passing as a subtle social signal or slang expression here will fly right over their heads, so I’m reasonably certain I have that same problem in reverse. We do have great affection all around and great times together. But that’s family stuff at home here, so I don’t get to see any of this in a business context or as it would be done there.

(I hope that makes sense - I assume from your writing style that you have lived in the US or Canada for a very long time.)

[PhasmaFelis]

@dman

Last time I was in the states I found it basically impossible to avoid institutionalized extortion at every turn. The culture insists it’s normal to require under-the-table kickbacks to all sorts of employees for all sorts of services and transactions. If you don’t grease the right palms, employees may flat-out refuse to do their job, while if you do, there is a good chance they will steal from their employers for you.

The fact that in so many situations the bribe is given secretly or at least discreetly illustrates that both parties know that it’s a shady deal at heart. Don’t let the boss know, don’t let the other people in line know, and definitely don’t let the taxman know and nudge nudge wink wink I’ll sort you out. This is exactly the sort of transaction that gets called corruption in other countries. In the US it’s just an assumed cultural prerogative.

Let me try this again.

I have lived in the US for most of my life, and I have literally never once seen any of the things you’re talking about. Tipping is problematic, but that’s clearly not what you’re describing, as tipping comes after the service is provided, is done openly and above-board, and only applies to a few specific services. Now, I’m just a programmer, so I can’t speak to corruption in specialized industries like construction; but you say that under-the-table bribes are expected before all kinds of services are provided, and I am here to tell you that for the average American citizen/consumer, that doesn’t happen, ever.

So I’d really like to know what you’re talking about. My best guess is that some asshole decided to jerk around the foreigner, but I can’t see that happening more than once or twice. I’m mystified.

[Shash]

@AliceWeir

Last time he came back from India, he was just blown away at the level of wealth and luxury attached to the tech business in those cities. Sounds like business is really booming there.

That’s not really true at this point in time. It’s all up in the air while we recover from the US recovery. But also remember, costs are much much less here; what looks like a luxury meal for four could be something like 1/10th the cost of an equivalent meal in the US. This I know from personal experience.

Alcohol is another question, of course - imported liquor is taxed like crazy!

@AliceWeir

I often think it must be very difficult for them, as they are all so attached to being ‘proper’ and leaving the right impression, while we are more attached to being casual - or at least, appearing casual. What you or I might understand in passing as a subtle social signal or slang expression here will fly right over their heads, so I’m reasonably certain I have that same problem in reverse.

Pretty much. It’s easier for me, because I’m city-bred and have a decent amount of exposure to American pop-culture, so I can figure out most references you guys make. And I can translate our local references to something Americans would understand. Not so for some of my colleagues.

Then there’s the accent problem. Conversations with non-Indians have to be slowed down so that each side can actually understand that the other is actually just talking English!

I’ve got American family (cousins born and brought up there), and it’s pretty much the same on both family and work fronts (as I say, I find it easier, others don’t). Lots of Indians who settle in the US end up having a vague half-accent that’s neither here nor there…

But as interesting as all this is from the cultural side, now you have me wondering… What does this mean for the main topic at hand? With all this difference of perception, is a broad definition of corruption even possible? Or a common way to tackle it, for that matter?

@AliceWeir

(I hope that makes sense - I assume from your writing style that you have lived in the US or Canada for a very long time.)

Haha, no… I haven’t lived anywhere outside India - or even outside Chennai in my life!

[AliceWeir]

Wow - in that case, hats off to you! Nobody I know here is even half as good with written English.

Nobody in my family has that accent you mention - they all have very thick accents. I’ve just gotten used to them But the kids have 1 parent from each country. so we asked that Indian relatives not speak English to the children, and American relatives will only speak English or Spanish, in order to help them learn each to its best advantage. So far, they adapt beautifully and can do it in a split second.

Maybe, his perception of Chennai was influenced by the way he was treated as a guest, then?
If the intention was to impress, perhaps they went out of their way to show off the positives.
(And now I understand why V. likes it so much when I give Chivas at Christmas, lol.)

As to the other- yes, exactly. I don’t know how you would perceive ‘corruption’, nor how you would define it. Some here seem to define it as bribing officials, some as failing to uphold the principles of their offices, some as street criminals. And also, the demographics are so very different here. So yes, I do wonder. If we each responded thinking of different types of corruption, then what would someone in Chennai think of? (I assume, not bacon, lol.)

And, you should plan a visit. I think you would have fun!

[anon67050589]

@AliceWeir

Wow - in that case, hats off to you! Nobody I know here is even half as good with written English.

Seriously? Talk about condescending. The wealthier classes in India have access to education – in proper English – much better than what the vast majority of U.S. students could ever hope to experience.

There are many non-U.S. posters at BB. You can’t see people’s skin color or passports in this medium. And you certainly can’t tell who they are by whether or not their English is “better than anyone you know”.

[AliceWeir]

As usual, you dive straight into jackassery. Shash knows exactly what I mean. My son holds two masters degrees and still has trouble with English syntax, because it’s not spoken the same way there and is not the primary written language. (And yes - you can sometimes tell where someone is from by their use of the language. Shash is very, very good with written English - thus, my compliment.)

So, I’m afraid the condescention is all yours. Fly away now.

[jerwin]

Cole’s rhetoric intersects nicely with the clumsiness of the Wisconsin Republican party

In a letter sent from his political committee, and posted online by the liberal website Daily Kos, Walker’s campaign tells parents to take advantage of “a Black Friday special that is better than any deal found in stores.”

“Instead of electronics or toys that will undoubtedly be outdated, broken, or lost by the next Holiday Season, help give your children the gift of a Wisconsin that we can all be proud of,” the letter said, asking for campaign donations.

To a true believer, it makes some sense, but children, like most people, are rarely true believers