I wouldn’t want to be either, that individual would not have standing to challenge the unlawful entry, but the fact that a theft was in progress does not make the entry lawful.
I wonder how police handle cases where the homeowner is deaf? That is something they (hopefully) have to take into consideration?
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You asked a police officer about the requirements of probable cause? Sometimes police officers are attorneys, but generally they are not. I think you would get a much different/better discussion of reasonable suspicion/probable cause from a criminal defense attorney, or a prosecutor.
Further, police officers generally have motive to, and indeed regularly make arguments in court that probable cause exists in any given situation. In a word, asking a police officer whether probable cause exists, is in my opinion, similar to asking a car salesman whether it is time for you to purchase a new car. Depending on the salesman, the answer is probably going to be a “yes” most of the time.
It is also important to remember that the court is the final arbiter of whether probable cause or an exception to the warrant requirement exists (which is the primary issue in this instance in my opinion -Probable cause is required to affect an arrest or obtain a warrant, not conduct a warrantless entry of a house).
In a hypothetical set of facts similar to these, I would argue (emphatically!) that in the absence of other facts, an open garage and backdoor in a neighborhood that has had crime in the past is simply not enough to enter the house without a warrant. Period. If the officers heard screaming coming from within the house, then it would be a difficult ball of wax (and could fall under the public safety exception, etc).
I am not your attorney, this is not legal advice. I am just discussing an issue that seems interesting in general terms and there are no doubtless other facts which are not discussed in this blog entry.
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How many cases of POC in circumstances like Maggie’s being shot dead would it take for you to consider that it might not be pure coincidence?
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Presumably because the latter situation isn’t particularly newsworthy, and the former is. No news organization is really going to give a fig if somebody calls them up to say “The police showed up to my house last night, and politely and safely woke me and my partner and nothing of any consequence happened”. But “cops came into my house and scared the shit out of my partner and me in bed” is a great little shock story, even if there were no other bad consequences.
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My house doesn’t even have ducts. Do you have any idea what it would cost to cut into the walls in every room, put in ducts and returns in every room, put up shims and drywall (because existing walls are plaster), finish and paint the new drywall, remove the old boiler, remove the old boiler’s housekeeping pad, remove all the boiler piping from both floors and the basement, patch all the holes in the floors from the old boiler plumbing, install new baseboard trim everywhere baseboard heating apurtenances used to be, put in new housekeeping pad, install new furnace, install new AC compressor and pipe new AC?
Man, talk about privilege.
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There have been murderous naked rapists who have broken into homes, no joke.
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I should hope not, that would be a terrible joke.
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[quote=“LyhjeHylje, post:65, topic:8542”]cases where the homeowner is deaf
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Policemen don’t deal well with deaf people, because they don’t comply with orders. For example: “Put the knife down. Put the knife down. Put the knife down. bang bang bang bang.” timed just as if reading it straight through… http://youtu.be/vcxqyp2wOzE
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growing up a latch-key kid kinda sucked, but it would have been a tremendous boon in this scenario. doors to my home are habitually closed and locked, I’m hardwired that way.
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Based on your account, I’m leaning more toward the officers’ training and professionalism affording you a positive outcome here than whatever perception you have of your status and privilege.
It’s not “perception”, it’s reality.
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I really respect it when people acknowledge their privileges in life instead of taking it for granted. Thank you, Maggie.
Related:
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Just be glad it was the police.
When we were woken by flashlights on the wall outside our bedroom door it WAS intruders and let me assure you, they make no attempt at all to announce themselves. We slammed the door and called the cops and when they showed up they said “Are you sure there’s no one else left hiding in the house”. We hadn’t even thought of it until then, so they swept the whole house, guns drawn.
They also went next door to our elderly neighbors who had their front door open, called out “Police” and went inside, guns drawn. Turns out elderly people don’t hear cops shouting at 3am either, but no one charged at the cops on that occasion.
Yes, there are times that the police overstep the boundaries, but having been in this situation, I can tell you I think they did exactly the right thing. I doubt it was your husbands skin color or lack of clothing that stopped them shooting him. It was the fact that they were well trained and were looking for signs of a threat to themselves or someone else before thinking of using their weapon. They were a lot more aware of what was going on than you or your husband were. Now, if you’d been the type to sleep with a loaded gun within arm’s reach of the bed, it might have been different…
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Apropo of nothing, but a funny pregnant, middle of the night story: I suffer from a variety of parasomnias, including night terrors and sleep paralysis. When I was pregnant with my daughter, and falling asleep at 8 every night, one night I went to bed, suffered both a night terror and sleep paralysis, but managed a gurgling scream like sound that echoed down to the first floor of our apartment. Our burly tabby cat Basil came racing up the stairs to save me from whatever was attacking me, sat up next to the bed to check out the scene, and seeing nothing, gave me a look of such exasperation and disgust! My husband came stumbling up the stairs moments later to save me, and seeing the cat they -I am not even joking- shared a look of amused tolerance that I still remember to this day. As if to say: “Oy! Pregnant ladies, what can you do?” I, meanwhile, couldn’t move, but was aware of everything. Such joy, this whole reproducing thing, such joy.
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On COPS “naked guy” usually means PCP.
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In retrospect how angry you at your hubby? 
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Yup. They’re known to leap on you and chew your face off. At least in Florida…
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Except that there seem to be plenty of times where there are other bad consequences.
Now, maybe we can chalk it up to news agencies and mass media bias for negative stories. But I can’t even find online anecdotal accounts from ordinary people. I keep readily coming across stories of police brutality, corruption, and endangerment, both in the “formal” media and in the unverified stories of individuals, but I can’t seem to find even a single rumoured instance of the police taking every possible precaution in the manner I described.
Again, maybe my perception is skewed, but based purely on my own intuitions, experiences, accumulated hearsay, and general sentiment, it is essentially unthinkable to me for American police to behave the way I postulated they should in the sort of scenario I suggested. I honestly cannot seriously believe that the police would act that way, and that’s depressing.
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It’s never no-pants-day outside. Gotta remember that.
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Indeed. I have been sent out at 5AM to procure Marmite, come home to discover all our clothes in the bin, and all my vinyl next to the sink, about to be washed in soapy water like plates (‘nesting instinct’ my eye, that’s pure crazypants) and had a VERY fast lesson in how to give a heimlich maneuver to an eight months pregnant woman with a new-found fondness for raw cauliflower and an alarming propensity to talk with her mouth full…
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