The UK's Conservative Party recently put up a new statue of known anti-Semite Nancy Astor

Correct. They just sent Theresa May to unveil it, and de Pfeffel and the local Tory candidate used it as a backdrop for a campaign photo. Or, put in Tory-speak, total disavowal.


Maybe don’t make up your mind just yet. Churchill shares responsible for the starvation of millions of British subjects in Asia during WW2.


Agreed - antisemitism is as baked in to the right wing as free market ideology is.

I’ve read The Telegraph’s 3 year ranting anti-Corbyn posts on this subject (and many other vile examples of opinions-dressed-as-news) and its source (the ERG) but for the life of me I cannot find many examples that don’t actually boil down to being critical of Israel, other than a couple of cases that were drummed out the party pronto.

I don’t personally view being critical of Israel (or any country) as being synonymous with antisemitism or anti the major faith of that country. I know that the extreme right wingers in Israel do view it as antisemitic. They do not speak for me.

The whole ‘debate’ about Labour and antisemitism has been held without actual scrutiny. There’s nothing in the press listing the number of accusations, what they were about, who was left unpunished. Nothing. No debate, ergo it’s just opinion?

Of course, when it happens, it should be rooted out.


Together with “bomber” Harris he also perfected the methods of strategic bombing striking down insurrections in Iraq a few decades earlier. It was cheaper bombing them from the air, Churchill even wanted to use gas. Churchill just looks good because he was contemporary with Hitler and Stalin.

I’m still waiting for calls to rename Washington, since you can’t have a capital named after a notorious slave owner, but I suppose that’s not going to happen, people like Nancy Astor or Marion Sims are easier targets.

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Cudos for actually reading 3 years worth of the Telegraph’s rants, I could not bring myself to do that. The rants about that in the Guardian were bad enough.

Those (few) examples of actual anti-semitism need to be dealt with, but it appears Labour is doing a lot about that, not just on a case-by-case basis, but also on a systemic level.

I don’t think it’s opinion, it’s propaganda, as it intentionally damages Labour.


Even though there was a certain evolution of Washington’s attitudes towards slavery, I think eventually that will have to be discussed.

It’s probably a good idea to question putting up statues in public places in general, and stop naming cities after “leaders”. Those personality cults are totally unhelpful for a modern democracy, and most of these people were assholes in some way or another, probably even more so than the average person, as positions of power and influence were rarely assigned according to skill and personal integrity. It’s not helpful at all to see history as shaped by a few powerful men, everyone has to take their share of responsibility.


A recent source of not-funny amusement is the establishment media’s pushing of the storyline, so to speak, that anti-Semitism is a leftist thing with conservatives defending Jews.
You know, like the story at the post gets a pass from the media. Trump celebrates a Jewish holiday by having as a speaker a radical rightist Xtian preacher. Trump declares Jews a nationality, an anti-Semitic trope, that is enabling and legitimatizing anti-Semites. I should elaborate that last one a bit. Jews aren’t so much declared a nationality as characterized as one to limit of eliminate leftist free speech on campuses because apparently tolerating anti-Israel speech is now to be forbidden on campuses receiving federal $$ which, I suppose, is most if not all campuses. (This apparently is how a POTUS upholds his duty to defend the Constitution or something by shitting all over it.)
So, thanks, establishment media for all your help over the last five decades in turning this nation into a repressive, extractive shithole. For all intents and purposes, mission accomplished.


Pointing the finger at the tories is not, in fact, a good response to accusations of Labour anti-semitism. Especially given how suddenly Labour activists start caring about Tory anti-semitism when Labour’s been accused of it.

There are lots of people with very real and very valid complaints, and dismissing it as a grand conspiracy against Labour (and for Israel, when in many cases there’s nothing to do with Israel about their issues) is itself an example of the arrogance - bordering on antisemitism itself - that alienates many people that have supported Labour for a long time.

And no, it is not sufficient for Labour to be merely better than the Tories.


Relevant reading: Nancy Mitford’s novel Wigs on the Green. Mitford’s sister was an ardent supporter of British fascist Oswald Mosley, & Mitford caused a permanent family rift when she published this novel satirizing the movement as a bunch of twits, dangerous in their ignorance.


Everyone in previous generations believed something that we find contemptible today. History will judge us more kindly, of course.

What? The claim was that they didn’t campaign for it. I’m not aware of any suggestion that they opposed it.
There are other shades than ‘black’ and ‘white’, y’know.

I’m no fan of Nancy Astor, and certainly not of Countess Markievicz, but I do think they’re worthy of commemoration for the electoral landmarks they achieved. And I rather doubt the Irish revolutionary/freedom fighter (delete according to preference) would have welcomed a statue in the UK…

Exactly. “They did it too” is never an excuse, and “we’re not as bad as the tories” should be a baseline, not something to shout about. :wink:

Again, tell the guy above who claimed the Labour MP led the effort. As to the comment I was responding to, I was [ETA: facetiously] clarifying further.

Also, when it comes to supporting or enabling fascists and not doing so, it is black and white.


Nice slogan.

Better than “let’s see if we can meet the fascists halfway on their demands”, the Tory motto during Astor’s time and during de Pfeffel’s.

My motto: no quarter for fascists, no excuses for those who wittingly or unwittingly vote for, support, or enable them. A bit uncivil, I know – the fainting couch is thataway.


Quotes from Churchill, you say?
How about his views on Islam!

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.

(Don’t like Churchill. He was occasionally witty, but he was also a truly awful human being.)


Mr Johnson purported PM attended this unveiling, avoiding other events. It’s fiendish. For the soft-minded like me, one could thread a story demonstrating how attendance at this event for the International Consortium of Very Right Wing Bastards was mandatory, and superseded anything else.

It’s like a religion. Just like Trump. I’ll be damned if there aren’t quarterly meetings in star chambers around the planet.

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When I proposed that subtitle (“Just Exactly How Fucked Are We?”) I vastly underestimated the situation.

Who was his publicity advisor? Barbara Streisand?

“Hey, look at our statue!.. Actually, on reflection, don’t look at our statue, please!”


Apparently one of the venues is now off limits.


But we’ll be getting a whole new big one:


What is the normal definition of a fascist? I’m confused.