This online comic shows how pick-up artists morphed into the alt-right

[gracchus]

That’s a very kind assessment of how he views these matters.

Anyhow, didn’t he make it clear that your lived experience has no bearing on the discussion? /s

[AndreStmaur]

@anon50609448

@AndreStmaur

I am also saying that it is not clear to me, as an early insider who left the websites 15 years ago, how the evolution happened. When I left, there was no obvious sense of “entitlement”, no talks about “feminism” and the men, in average, were reasonably successful. Somewhere in between, the attitudes flipped.

I think what others are trying to tell you is that if you didn’t see the inherent sexism in the messages then that was because you missed it. I said above that I indirectly used information from a PUA newsletter more than a decade ago, and I can see why you’d feel that there were people who got something out of it (e.g., being pressured to overcoming anxiety).

It was still based around a lot of men-are-like-this/women-are-like-this stuff. I can see why that wouldn’t leap off the page as sexist to some people; Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus was apparently the #1 selling book of the 1990s, written by a guy with a PhD. A lot of people see messages like that as practical, not as sexist.

But it was always sexist no matter how people read it. A major book that is read by men and women and discussed in mainstream media is reflected and reinforced existing culture. An insular movement in online chat rooms that is lead by charlatans intensified into a toxic morass.

I like your posts in this thread a lot. They are always balanced and considerate.

As a simple answer: I don’t think that this thread in particular or boingboing in general is a place to discuss whether any kind of seduction advice, for men or for women, is appropriate, sexist or else. I did not say it is and I did not say it isn’t. I simply wish to leave that particular part of the discussion aside.

[gracchus]

Well why didn’t you say so earlier? Your personal disappointment with BB carries so much weight.

Attention all BoingBoing Authors and commenters: the formerly hidden arbiter of the site’s content hereby declares that content related to PUAs is off-limits on account of it hurts his fee-fees.

[anon50609448]

@AndreStmaur

I don’t think that this thread in particular or boingboing in general is a place to discuss whether any kind of seduction advice, for men or for women, is appropriate, sexist or else.

Alright, that strikes me as totally weird. It’s a comic about how PUAs morphed into a community driven by a hate-filled ideology. I would think that the latent misogyny in PUA culture would be a key piece in that puzzle. You said you didn’t see how it got from where it was when you were a part of it to where it is today. The sexism inherent in it is the answer to that question (along with lots of other factors like competition between profiteers; discussion forums where hateful voices are amplified; encouragement from society for hateful groups to come out into the light so we can celebrate debate them; etc)

Anyway, I think I’ve said all I have to say on the topic, so have a good day.

[AndreStmaur]

@gracchus

Well why didn’t you say so earlier? Your personal disappointment with BB carries so much weight.

Attention all BoingBoing Authors and commenters: the formerly hidden arbiter of the site’s content hereby declares that content related to PUAs is off-limits on account of it hurts his fee-fees.

You are free to discuss the subject as you so wish. I just said that I will not do so.

[gracchus]

@AndreStmaur

You are free to discuss the subject as you so wish. I just said that I will not do so.

If only you’d come to that conclusion four days ago.

[Melizmatic]

But dont you feel so special; he usually likes your comments! You can die happy now, grac; there is no higher, more prestigious seal of approval…

[AndreStmaur]

@anon50609448

Alright, that strikes me as totally weird. It’s a comic about how PUAs morphed into a community driven by a hate-filled ideology. I would think that the latent misogyny in PUA culture would be a key piece in that puzzle.

That is the key point I am not convinced about, but I have already explained that.

@anon50609448

Anyway, I think I’ve said all I have to say on the topic, so have a good day.

And you. It was a pleasure to have you along.

[Melz2]