To find Hillary Clinton likable, we must learn to view women complexly

boing
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I was thinking of Gore while reading, specifically what I remember at the time being called his “woodenness.” He seemed then to (unsuccessfully and repeatedly) make gambits to break out of that like the sweeping-her-off-her-feet kiss to his wife moment.

I don’t completely disagree with this (and I do believe I’ve witnessed many likely sexist examples of double-standards this election year), but I don’t think it’s as simple as just that. After all, other countries have managed to overlook gender in the election of their most prominent political leaders (Merkel and Thatcher come to mind, though the more liberal among us may have a hard time thinking of “the Iron Lady” as “likable”…)

As an example from my own art background: a former queer feminist artist who was a teacher of mine produced a video work long before Clinton’s candidacy in which she ruminated on the forgettableness of Clinton as a public figure.

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It’s also true that Thatcher only had to win in Finchley, not across all of the UK.

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Did you not read the first half of that sentence? In which I point put that HRC’s past actions match her current platform and, therefore, may make it more likely that her platform will be acted upon if she is elected? Or did you miss that implication because you were too excited to point out MARKETING?

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bernie bros might want to throw the election with a bernie write-in vote, a stay at home in aloof purity vote, or with a protest 3rd party vote. “what do you have to lose”, donald j, asks and young people equate that with revolution and burning down the system in order to remake it their way, the same activist vocal minority way every other special interest group wants to do.
hillary is by far the most qualified candidate to run in this election while donald j. is simply selfish and a rabble rouser.

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I understood that they aren’t going to win. My point was about the possible effects of voting for someone who we know is not going to win. Repeating the same article saying they aren’t going to win tells me nothing about that.

I fully agree with Chomsky there, but note his qualification: in competitive swing states, where you must, one votes for the lesser evil Democrat. If you do otherwise, you are risking disaster. But it doesn’t follow that it’s harmful to do otherwise in states that are secure against swinging. I would argue that then it can as strategic to at least try. Because…

…while this isn’t particularly liable to happen, at least it makes it less likely for them to abandon those demographics in favor of more-right voters, taking the larger left for granted because it has nowhere to go. No, not by much. Your vote in a state that is secure for one party is never going to do much. But I do think that this could be using it to its most positive effect, and can’t recall any solid arguments otherwise, certainly not enough to justify the scorn heaped on the idea.

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I don’t dislike her. I also wish we could get over this notion that our leaders have to be “likable”.

I don’t give a rat fuck if my mechanic, my surgeon or any other professional is “likable”. I want to know if they’re competent, interested and capable.

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Do note that Clinton’s platform is the furthest left platform of any Democratic candidate since FDR. The Dems. are a big tent party that has to get ~45% of a poorly educated and highly propagandized voting populace to vote for them. The far left are maybe ~5%. If they leave, I’d guess it’s more likely the Dems. will just find other groups to represent/replace them and leave them even more disenfranchised, since they need ~45% of a poorly educated and highly propagandized voting populace to vote for them

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The “left” covers a lot of ground. I will 100% agree that Hillary is less shit than Donald, but I doubt that she will give us 50% of what we want unless you mean that she will leave the job half done. Just looking at issues that affect me I feel let down already.

The disability rights page could mean anything without more information, and I have been let down before now by politicians who were less vague on the issue (Tony Blair).

On Transgender rights she says she will “make it easier for transgender Americans to change their gender marker on identification documents”. She could (and should) just get rid of the gender markers, the only people who need to know are medical workers, everyone else should only be told if I choose to do so.

On workers rights she says she will “work to raise the federal minimum wage to $12”, below what is needed to live in many places. George Osborne did the same thing and no one is claiming he was good to for workers rights (with good reason). As for the rest of it, what happened to 8 hours work, 8 hours leisure and 8 hours rest?

I could go though the rest of the issues but it is much the same.

This is not a left vs right contest, Hillary is a conservative who is standing against a fascist. Yes, go and vote for her but don’t believe for one second she will be any good. She’s just better than the alternative, like a broken arm is better than an amputation.

Elect her president, but make her know that she will have to pay for our support with far more than she is offering.

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While walking down the street one day Hillary Clinton is tragically hit by a car and died. Her soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance. “Welcome to heaven,” ; says St. Peter. “Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so
we’re not sure what to do with you.” “No problem, just let me in,” says Hillary.

“Well, I’d like to, but I have orders from the higher ups. What we’ll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity.” “Really?, I’ve made up my mind. I want to be in heaven,” says Hillary.

“I’m sorry, but we have our rules.” And with that, St. Peter escorts her to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.

The doors open and she finds herself in the middle of a green golf course.

In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all her friends and other politicians who had worked with her. Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet her, shake her
hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the people. They played a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and the finest champagne. Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who is having a good time dancing and telling jokes.

They are all having such a good time that before Hillary realizes it, it is time to go. Everyone gives her a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises. The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens in heaven where St. Peter is waiting for her, "Now it’s time to visit heaven…

So, 24 hours passed with Hillary joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before she realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns. “Well, then, you’ve spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity.”

Hillary reflects for a minute, then answers: “Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell.” So St. Peter escorts her to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell…

Now the doors of the elevator open and she’s in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage. She sees all her friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above The devil comes over to her and puts his arm around her shoulders. “I don’t understand,” stammers Hillary. “Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there’s just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?”

The devil smiles at her and says, “Yesterday we were campaigning, Today, you voted…”

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While I have low expectations, I also don’t see Clinton as a conservative (in US political terms, in idealist terms the left is ~1% of the US populace). She’s got a long history of moderate-left votes and projects and her platform is further to the left than Obama’s was. She is a DLC pragmatist who triangulated to the right when it was convenient politically, but that’s not the same thing as being conservative. Though, indeed, stopping the fascist matters most of all, and if the left gets ~5% of what they want, that’s better than a fascist who promises to undo past progress.

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There are likeable women. Hillary doesn’t happen to be one of them. She has had the good fortune to get national exposure despite her personality because she was married to one of the most charming people in American history.

Hillary is the most qualified of the remaining contenders. Maybe in the next election, the major parties can find someone who is qualified and likeable who isn’t 1) too goddam old 2) spouse/son/daughter of a former president (amazing how we hunger for kings and queens) 3) and disdainful of the people they are supposed to serve. Might even be a woman, particularly if we get away from the Vietnam era senior citizens.

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We don’t want folksy guy, dad joke, or angry old dude running the country, apparently. The Democrats have spoken, and they want Hillary to run the country - those three dudes didn’t earn the votes. However “likable” they are, we’d rather trust HRC with the highest office in the land, overall. (I confess that the illness rumors had me entertaining the thought of President Tim Kaine, and it would be 300% worse than President Hillary Clinton).

She’s been faced with a double-standard, absolutely. There are issues with America embracing a woman for high office.

But it’s not on America to find her likable. Between now and November, the US isn’t going to have some sort of spontaneous awakening of gender consciousness. Even in a world that was totally fair, HRC might not be “likable,” because she’s by all accounts serious and driven and a little ruthless - and those qualities are never likable, even in guys. Arguably, her issue is trying too hard to play by male standards of what success and power look like - she’s certainly bought into the patriarchal ideal of what a strong leader looks like. But all that’s entirely hypothetical, since we don’t live in a fair world, or a world that’s going to ever be fair to HRC.

She’s not running for president of the nation she’d like to have, she’s running for president of the nation that is, in all its misogyny and bigotry and awfulness.

And we need her to win this thing.

Saying “The only reason America doesn’t find her likable is because she doesn’t have a dick” might be entirely accurate, but it’s not going to change the reality she faces. It sucks that she needs to be better in all ways than any man who is running, and I hope we can work toward a world where the NEXT female president doesn’t face that, but it’s no less true now.

These all sound like reasons people can point to in the post-mortem of America when it is written in 2020 after World War 3 for why we fell into this spiral, and it will be true, and the survivors will nod their heads sadly and apologize to their children and say they didn’t imagine it would get this bad, but it’s not a solution for the problems she’s facing in the next month.

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Not the same thing. Elizabeth Warren is, in American political terms, a radical (she doesn’t think a massive golden calf ought to be built in the middle of Wall Street for the children of the poor to be burned underneath it, the maverick) and so can be controversial. And the GOP will, of course, slime her, because that’s what they do to everyone. But there’s no hate for her. There’s no hate for Jill Stein. Not a lot of people will vote for her, 'cos third party, but people have respect and enthusiasm for her.

Fact of the matter is, people are absolutely capable of empathizing and liking all sorts of women in positions of power and prominence. Women are capable of being leaders and inspiring: It’s not exactly a politics example, but I’d personally follow Eugenie Scott to hell and back.

Hillary Clinton needs to stop hiding behind other women like this. It’s disgraceful and disrespects the achievements of generations of sincere feminists working for a better world. Female presidents have been elected _all over the world._It’s absolutely possible to elect a female president or PM, even in countries far less obsessed with being gender-equal than America. The Brits recently got one and didn’t bat an eye except to complain about Theresa May being a goddamn fascist. See, Women can be bastards, too.

So, no, people don’t dislike Hillary Clinton because she’s a woman. They dislike her because of her policies, her insincerity, her ties to corporate America, or her horrifying foreign policy track record. The fact that she has, to most people, zero charisma doesn’t help.

Also: Most qualified human being? Seriously? I mean, yeah, compared to Annoying Orange or her predecessor, she’s up there, but compared to early American presidents, in terms of raw qualification, she’s nowhere near. They were largely certifiable polymath geniuses. She… isn’t.

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Yes, but no more than, say, Obama, or her husband, although she gets more criticism for it than they do.

The Dems are not the party I want. But there isn’t an alternative that can win. Get her elected, get progressives in the Dems elected to the senate/House, and get progressives, socialists and greens elected at lower levels where they can win. And hold her feet to the fire to do what’s on the platform, but don’t refuse to vote in the 2018 midterms in protest.

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And if they just stay, it’s more likely the Democratic party can take their support for granted and run to the right instead. Which is why I didn’t advocate doing either on the whole. Rather, I support Chomsky’s notion of strategic voting, and am upset that it’s such a hated notion to consider this might involve different strategies from people in different strategic situations.

I like where you talk about Clinton’s platform. Outside of cases where the need to keep the orange menace at bay is imminent, that strikes me as a sensible way to approach these things. Let’s do that, instead of assuming that a vote for a progressive who won’t win – or for that matter a compromise who can, as some others fault – must be betraying the cause regardless of other factors.

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IIRC, people liked Warren a LOT more after she was elected. Perhaps the same will happen with Clinton.

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I agree. I don’t want to, but there isn’t a better option.

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Probably. Linked in the article…

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This is a perfect synopsis of my feelings, as well. I’ll vote for her, but I dread her presidency only 50% less than I dread Trump’s.

I think she is in the pocket of some of the people who make this country suck. Trump has many of the people who make this country suck in his pocket.

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