TPP will ban rules that require source-code disclosure

I believe signatories are provided with exclusions from TPP restrictions for the purpose of government procuration. These exclusions are capped for different commodities/etc and were negotiated. The caps are hard caps and if reached even government procuration is subject to TPP. To help insure the govt caps were less volatile they are measured in SDR’s as opposed to any particular currency.

One thing the TPP doesn’t do is force purchases, but it is a hollow protection when markets are dominated by those dictating the terms of the TPP.

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So is this an excuse to skip code-review day or not?

Further on the dangers related to this point, the right of refusal.

Govts aside due to military exemption & capped commodity exemptions, everyone needs to purchase.

Eventually, no bidders will willingly offer disclosure and purchasing entities will be forced to either suck it up and use products whose code they don’t have access to, or, pay far more for the clever bidder who allows them the code, with restrictions on how they can use it nonetheless.

The right to shop elsewhere is no protection at all, because there will either be no elsewhere or elsewhere will be a honeypot where govts and the rest of us go to get fiscally fucked, paying a premium for what should have been our right to have.

So far, on every point in every thread here and elsewhere the TPP is a straight up power and money grab by large corporations whose concessions to even the governments negotiating for them is a straight up trap.

Governments are selling it for them, even offering multi-billion dollar bribes to the industries that will be most quickly affected.

I don’t keep tabs on the govts of all signatories, so I could be wrong, but Canada’s majority Liberal govt is not going to help and elections are far, far away.

As far as I can tell it’s up to the US to get Bernie in there (cause Clinton will flip on the TPP 5 minutes after the polls close), fan the flames of the Libertarians that oppose the TPP, paint the TPP as 100% Obama to secure the GOP crazytrain’s opposition in both houses. Pretty much do anything you have to. Cause it’s up to you.

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Wow. This is a big, F-you to the open software, anti DRM, security through transparency movements. I find it very highly disturbing.

But, I came here to expand on this post a little. Yes, we need source codes, and we also need things like testing and for some cases, certification of the tool chain used to make the software. Consider this brief piece on trust from the ACM:

It’s not a long read, nor all that difficult. It is really worth your time, because it gets right at the nature of trust, and how just having source code isn’t anywhere near enough! Couple this understanding with Lessig, and the ideas in “CODE” and it’s not hard to arrive at a state of real, genuine concern about the ambiguity of it all and the impact that can have on all of us as ordinary people.

The big argument, from their point of view, is software is hard, it’s got IP in it, and having all that exposure creates liabilities that make the whole thing not worth doing. And they might be right about that too. And if they are, having public software efforts might be necessary to establish meaningful trust that we all can live with.

Nobody talks much about that. Why? I say, it’s the money and maybe even more basically, control. The prospect of a digital divide, hidden, is a legal playground for people who really want to actualize controversial ideas in society. Who needs actual law that actual people can talk about, when software can accomplish the same basic thing with no real accountability?

Total wet dream for just the sorts of people who really shouldn’t be in that position of control, sans accountability in the first place.

Finally, I was involved with the movement to get the State of Oregon to consider Open Source in the early 00’s. The opposition to open software did everything they could to crush the idea. They were successful, and their success was due to the corruption Larry is trying to get us to get serious about too. (a donation and a coupla lunches shut down legislation that had bi-partisan support otherwise)

Portland Oregon paid a company to make a water billing system that was terrible. They paid millions for it too, and they pay for fixes, updates, whatever, and most importantly, they really don’t own the code they paid for. They have a license and all that, but the public dollars did more to provide a revenue stream for somebody than they did actually make an asset.

What a lot of us saw wrong centered in on the idea that we know we could have taken that very large sum of money, used it to start a foundation for creating that software. That foundation could be making jobs for people in Oregon, and it could have paid reasonable wages, and it would own the code, and could make that code open too. For the same, or more likely a lesser sum, that civic problem could have been solved, updated, fixed, etc… and once done, operate in a transparent way. Secondly, that foundation could offer that software to any other municipality looking to solve the same, or a similar problem! With things being open, others could pay for help, to support the foundation, or just take the code and do their own thing with it too, perhaps starting their own for the public good.

Essentially, the problem of water system billing is a solvable one. Once solved, we get something that looks a lot like real infrastructure! And doing that takes a ton of the cost out of government, improves trust, operates correctly, can be reviewed by citizens, and held to account under the law, and the data and in general, work of the public, can be in open formats, usable by anyone running anything at all! All of these things are really important, high value things.

At that time, most of the legislators actually got it! Some of us served as consultants to talk with them, educate them, and get them to understand how software isn’t the same as a physical thing, but it’s place in society is very much the same as basic infrastructure, as are the risks and costs.

We are headed in all the wrong directions on this stuff. Computing offers the promise of greater productivity and efficiency. As a public work, this makes great sense. All of that value gets diluted when we can’t actually evaluate the software. And reverse engineering it to make open things to recapture those gains as actual public good? Forget it.

This TPP is very depressing. We very seriously need to get active.

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I’m not sure I follow your point. Most code is already proprietary and we already use tons of products whose code we don’t have access to. This TPP provision doesn’t change that or place any restrictions on code that is already open source. It simply gives folks in one country who own proprietary code the right to sell products in other countries containing their compiled code without the governments of those other countries demanding access to the source code. So it strengthens the rights of owners of proprietary code, but there isn’t an immediate loss of rights for the average joe (just a loss of potential rights that we might gain if the code transparency warriors ever manage to gain traction).

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VW as an example? Well, Germany hasn’t signed up to this agreement, but yeah, I do get the point.

TTIP will be most likely TPP’s twin.

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It is quite frankly the death of satire if it is determined that voting machines are not critical infrastructure…

And what how is ‘not inconsistent’ different to ‘consistent’? are they pulp writers paid by the word?

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I feel like it should be noted that right now there is a category of devices for which source code disclosure is commonly required by many governments: voting machines. This would overturn all the laws requiring that voting machine makers disclose their source code to governments unless voting machines are considered “critical infrastructure” (which seems unlikely).

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Besides restricting a sovereign peoples’ ability to pass legislation over what enters their market? Your last line emphasizes my point nicely, If TPP is ratified there will be no traction to be had whatsoever.

Also this is a burgeoning problem, much of the proprietary code in question is benign but as more devices, more vehicles, more infra-interactive code-driven technology is put into service, the more important it becomes for such code to be available just to protect private property rights, let alone know just what your technology is doing.

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I’m not sure it bans the GPL, but I think that it means that courts can’t enforce it

It sounds to me like “party” here refers to signatory governments. Meaning that you can’t require someone to disclose source code in order to sell their product in your jurisdiction. It doesn’t seem to cover anything else, from specific commercial contracts to the GPL of even government procurement rules. What would be forbidden would be, for example, China (Not a signatory) requiring MS to allow them to inspect their source code in order to let them do business in the country. There’s plenty to hate about this treaty, but I don’t think this clause means what Cory thinks it does.

Provision 3(A) seems like it would be relevant:

The GPL is a license agreement(it doesn’t force you to do anything; it just specifies the terms and conditions that you have to agree to in order to legally use somebody’s copyrighted software); and “Nothing in this Article shall preclude the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions in commercially negotiated contracts”.

The purpose of 3(A) seems to be preventing the creation of a law where governments aren’t even allowed to buy source code from contractors; even if both parties agree, not protect the GPL; but unless the GPL is suddenly not a contract(which, so far, it has had a good run in court of being); it would appear to be the case that GPL-compelled disclosure would be a ‘term or condition’ that you agree to when you accept the license agreement.

I do suspect that anyone who tries an “OSS software shall be required or preferred for all public software contracts” policy will get litigated into the ground on the grounds that such a rule makes competition cry and is tantamount of enforcing code disclosure, and whatnot; but the nice thing about the GPL, itself, is that it derives its authority from being a copyright license, so attempts at copyright-maximallist dickery are hard to construct without also keeping it intact.

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This has already happened, in effect.
The US supplied a type of helicopter to the UK. One of them crashed over Northern Ireland, killing a number of senior officers. The craven MOD blamed pilot error but there was a widespread belief, extensively reported in Computer Weekly at the time, that it was faulty software. The US refused to release the source code to the MOD. It was quite a scandal at the time. I still know a few ex-RAF people whose opinion of the MOD and the US government is unprintable.

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I don’t think this rule will stop application inspection. There are solutions in the market like Veracode (disclaimer: I’m an employee) that can identify security issues in compiled applications, and certainly there are plenty of tools for reverse engineering that don’t require source code, just the bits.

What it does do is throw a massive chilling effect over efforts by software purchasers to identify and mitigate the risks they take by deploying purchased software, or by using other products of which said software is part of the supply chain. Precisely backward to where the market should be going.

But that’s an arms race. We know that VW intentionally programmed their cars to defeat certain inspections, they could program them to defeat other kinds of inspections. Things can be inspected, but usually companies who are subject to the inspections get to know what the inspections entail. If they know how they will be inspected and the inspectors don’t know what the software does, it isn’t even an arms race, it’s completely one sided.

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If A is not B, not everything which is not A is going to automatically be B. The confusion is that of bipolar thinking, and thus assuming that everything must fit into either category. Something like “not inconsistent” requires lateral thinking, it can be more accurate, but may also be intentionally deceptive.

A lyric from Nik Turner’s “Anubis” springs to mind as an example:

Like my ur-hekau with which the god’s mouths I loosed
in my hall of two truths, no untruth be excused

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why would a trade deal encourage “non trade” ?
TPP will just shift ALL jobs to the cheapest labour market.

a global race to the bottom is what this is !

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I was just thinking it would be nice if this craptactular made globalism so toxic that nations went back to making their own shit and only trading for what they couldn’t make at home. Impractical I know; we appear to be headed towards zero hour… the “flexible contact” distopia.

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one can hope and campaign against this poisonous agenda…
i, for one, am over this globalisation.

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