How do you break down the Catalan population that wants independence?
Among the actual population, there are between 40 and 50 percent who genuinely want to be independent. So the movement is real, at the level of civil society. What politicians have done with that movement is a different question. Among the 40 or 50 percent, they are politically all over the map. It could be a Catholic baker from a small town, or an accountant from Barcelona, who thinks Catalonia would have its finances in better order, and doesn’t feel Spanish. Or it could be a 20-year-old immigrant from North Africa who moved to Catalonia, and feels very much part of the Catalan project and doesn’t feel part of Spain at all. It also includes leftist activists and militants who believe the only way to achieve social change towards equality and social justice is to have a smaller and more manageable and republican Catalonia, as opposed to the larger parliamentary monarchy with strong conservative tendencies. Some of them don’t consider themselves nationalists and don’t care about flags and anthems; they want a progressive republic. If the only way to get that is to ally with a conservative party with economic policies [they] strongly disapprove of, so be it. As soon as [they] get it, they can drop the alliance and fight for progressive politics.
Do you buy the number that the Catalan government is putting out? That 90 percent or so voted for independence?
I think so, yeah. There was a nonbinding referendum in 2014 and the numbers aligned with that. Turnout would have been 40 percent or so, and of the people who turned out, 90 percent voted for independence. It makes sense because people who were against independence would not have gone out and voted. There was no real campaign for the no vote.
and in the category of articles most likely to annoy @Wanderfound
What the Spanish government has failed to understand: Even a no vote in the referendum will tame the independentists. Our longitudinal surveys of independence activists before, during, and after a symbolic vote for independence held in November 2014, for example, showed that voting has a cathartic effect. We found that the strength of Catalan identity expressed by independence activists decreased after the vote. Using a psychometric tool known as identity fusion, activists can indicate on a survey how much their sense of self is defined by being Catalan. Before the vote, 75 percent of activists felt “fused” with Catalonia; after the vote, the number dropped to almost 50 percent.
Obviously the violence is awful. But I don’t see anything admirable about a rich region attempting to divest itself of its responsibilities towards poorer regions of the country. As a recent commenter put it, this isn’t about Catalonia vs Madrid, it’s about Catalonia vs Andalusia.
Spain’s “autonomous regions” already have a pretty big level of independent governance, and have done for longer than Scotland or Wales, for example (and more than England, or the English regions, which have to make do with Westminster). I don’t know exactly how it compares precisely.
The stupidity of Spain government in handling this just makes me want to scream. Especially when polls suggest that the majority of Catalonia wants to stay with Spain, or did before this week anyway. Having a proper referendum with a no vote winning could have put this to rest.
I do know about that, the thing is that internationally Catalonia isn’t recognized as a sub-country per say, this is going to be a half ass example but like Wales & Scotland field their own national teams for FIFA events while Catalonia is split between 3 regions (the picture below is what i mean by 3) and doesn’t field a team. . . . . Does that make sense
Its like Catalonia wants to break up and Spain is clearly an abusive partner and doesn’t let it happen, Catalonia isn’t recognized as it’s own person. . . .yeah, legal person
89% of the voters, which were about 30% of the actual possible voters.
No real legitimate result can be read from this, in a great deal because the Spanish government ensured no conditions to a real legitimate vote could happen.
All that can be read is that there is a lot of people that want to vote for independence, that they arent probably a mayority but who knows (and with stupid stunts like yesterday, you can bet it will keep growing), and that our president is a dumbass.
They are catastrophic idiots, that unfortunately pander and play to a not insignificant base of catastrophic idiots (some of them my relatives…) that would even be happy with a fight.
Seems to me its time for both the Spanish and Catalan governments to resign so they can start over with new, hopefully more sensible, people. I guess a bunch of heads in the police should roll too.
I wonder what you would think if a rich region in your country, that already has one of the largest degrees of independence, passed a law, declared illegal by the Constitutional Court, that defined uni-lateral independence in 2 days no matter what the attendance to the illegal independence referendum is, the referendum being a largely post-truth based on Trump/Brexit/LePen/Chavism style populism. And independence not being a good thing for anyone
Unlike Scotland, Catalans voted in a referendum (more than 90% yes and massive attendance) for a Constitution that does not address self- determination (like the US; Germany, France, Italy …). Desire for independence, while undeniable, was residual for 30 years (15% in 2005), and suddenly climbed to 40% in short time when an bad economic crisis strikes
Oh, and an informal referendum had been allowed in 2014 with not incidents
So many corruption cases against the spanish government party (PP) that they are absolutely delighted with this, as it takes away all the focus from them. That, and BONUS in the rest of spain many people now see them as defenders of law and justice against the Catalan insurgents. Yesterday has made the gap deeper than ever, now a chasm that will be nearly impossible to bridge. I am very sad, and I fear further escalation in the coming weeks from both sides.
Spain is “made up” of 17 autonomous regions. They each have their own local government and all enjoy a relative - key word being relative - level of freedom. they do not have fiscal or financial independence though. even though Catalunya has never, it its whole history, been an independent nation as such - so not annexed like Scotland or Ireland or Wales in the case of the UK - they have always felt the need to mark their differences with the rest of Spain. It’s all come to a head now. "Economy is shot, and its Spain’s fault. We make more money than the rest, and Spain takes it away from us, " but it’s actually 30+ years of schooling that has fed the myth that Spain is an oppressive state. The fact riot police viciously act at any illegal mass demonstration is not exclusive to Spain or even Europe for that matter. Police violence aside, there are 40million remaining spaniards watching aghast who, far from yearning each for their own independence, simply cannot get it into their heads as to what are the actual, practical, logical reasons for this need for independence.
to the point of the economy, this chart illustrates why catalans ( and not Madrid for example) feels their community is being robbed.
