Pues eso hombre, lo que yo estaba diciendo, pero mas detallado 
Thanks for explaniing it much better than me. !!
The point being it’s all a frigging Utopia and very far from a sustainable, equal and solidarious “cry for freedom”. I mean freedom from WHAT for fcuks sake…!!!
1 Like
and to even dare to pretend that Spain is, once again, a dictatorship isn’t just ludicrous, but it’s also shaming the memory and sacrifice of all those who fought and gave their lives in the fight against fascism. Catalan extremist nationalists manipulate the truth constantly, always, to push their own agenda. always. That’s the extremists which I’m referring to. The more moderate - yet highly politicized catalans - who voted “yes” in the referendum are doing so for the same reasons many voted “yes” in the Brexit referendum. They are sick of the POLITICIANS, sick of their bad luck, of their shot economy. But they believe that by becoming independent that will all go away…
3 Likes
2 Likes
Spanish civil war broke down along political lines, left wing revolutionary and right wing counter-revolutionary. The right wing rebelled against the election of a left wing government, and support poured in to both sides from fascists and socialists governments. Lots of leftists from the US and Western Europe went to serve in support of the leftist government. I think the physical divisions ended up being between the rural parts of the country, controlled by the right wing and the urban areas under government control. I’m not sure if there is a one to one mapping between Catalan independence movement and the Spanish civil war, though.
Well, if Catalan does break off, they’ll have to be incorporated into the EU in some way.
1 Like
Funnily enough, it is Catalonia that leads the ranking of potitians on trial for corruption. (see map)
Jordi Pujol, Catalan president for 23 years, was found to have bank accounts in tax haven Andorra. Currently under investigation is the “caso 3%”, were Pujol personally and routinely demanded comissions of 3% or more companies that wanted to do business in Catalonia. The Pujol’s family is calculated to have made 4000 million euro from this, one what looks to be Europe’s largest corruption case in the history of Europe. Son Oriol Pujol Ferrusola has been sentenced to 2 and half years imprisonment.
Another key case is El Liceu, the iconic Barcelona opera house that burned down and got rebuilt with 9 million euro from the central government. Waiting for a final sentence, estimated comissions are around 6 million euro.
Mister44
Well, if Catalan does break off, they’ll have to be incorporated into the EU in some way
Nope. New country, needs to apply for membership. EU officials have said this a countless number of times. Even if independence was agreed with the rest of Spain.
1 Like
Interestingly, Catalonia’s own autonomic police force (same word, “policia”) took a similar approach to vacate a square nor that long ago
1 Like
I won’t defend that if that’s what you think my reaction would be, an unjust violent act has no base for it, especially if its unarmed civilians, besides, its starting to look like every police force one way or another has started to have a decline in honor, also, that’s one annoying song omg why did they pick that 
Also, i figured their was some form of corruption in the police depo, where he says " the police always wins " and then hides behind the law, even though it pretty much looks like a clearly abuse of power when that one asshole whacks that lady on her bum with the baton
on a totally different note, has anyone ever been to a demonstration where the police where not overly aggressive and heavy handed?? I mean “illegal” demonstration. not justifying them AT ALL, on the contrarty. I got horse charged by a whole load of cunts at a demonstration against student loans… HORSE CHARGED (in the UK) long time back.
1 Like
Oh yeah, I wasn’t saying that the CIU (or whatever the fuck they call themselves today) isn’t also rotten to the core. Be carefull with your sources, I have lately given up on almost all local news sources, it’s 90% fake news or grotesquely selective on either side. It’s wartime press. It is ugly. There’s no hiding.
From what i’ve been reading and seeing reported it seems that Catalan’s grievances are more historical based. Their past relationship with Spain than what’s current. Madrid currently pays more in taxes than Catalan does and they aren’t looking for independence. Granted i say this as someone outside looking in and have no stake in what’s going on.
The biggest issue is definitely the overreaction from the central government cracking down so hard on a referendum vote. Had they humored the referendum and then worked with the local government in hashing out their complains and issues in order to smooth things over none of this would have happened… maybe, i would hope that this could have been avoided. I feel for the citizens of Spain and Catalan because they’re all caught in the middle of this fight.
1 Like
it’s 90% fake news or grotesquely selective on either side
I would not go that far. Although media in general is more biased than it once was, old formal national newspapers around here are reasonably reliable on fact based stuff; obviously opinions are something else. Newer online only media can be anything.
The way is nearly clear, but untested. They’ll have to apply, and can join if the other member states agree on that.
That includes Spain, of course. Unanimity principle. Build in, you see? To blame for much, to praise for more.
The Scottish referendum already lead to this discussion, and frankly Spain was not amused that the British government did, at the time, signal that it wouldn’t stand in the way of incorporating Scottland as 29th member state. There would have been a good chance that Spain would not have agreed.
2 Likes
I can’t imagine that Spain wouldn’t lobby against it pretty hard. And you’re saying that it has to be unanimous? Hm.
Yep, as far as my knowledge on applying for membership in the EU goes.
I have really no idea what the Catalan regional government and the Spanish central government are thinking. Even seasoned conservative EU parliamentarians are now worried about the threat of a civil war-like scenario if Catalunya declared independence and Spain, according to an article of their constitution, takes over the government of the independent region.
Just listened to several interviews on the radio, haven’t heard admitting such being at a loss from experienced politicians for quite some time.
1 Like
The wiki article said ETA started out peaceful and changed over time as the group was violently oppressed.
If that is not an accurate mammary then would you please go fix the article?
Who said Spain was now dictatorship?
Ah, I understand now. You re a Madrid sockpuppet that is trying to confuse the issue.
Gotcha.
it’s most unfortunate but a large proportion of the catalns who crave independence are making constant comparisons with Franco and his dictatorship. It’s not an assumption, it’s a fact, plastered all over twitter, facebook and in the streets. Madrid, BTW is not Spain. Spain is made up of over 40million citizens residing ì in 17 different autonomous regions, of which Madrid is one, and happens to be where the Spanish government sits. this si not a clash between Madrid and Catalonia, its an issue that concerns very single spaniard, including Canary Islands and Balearics
CATEXIT would happen overnight, no 2 year negotiation like Brexit
