Tropes vs Women in Video Games: Ms. Male Character

As a male gamer, I’m starting to dread the release of a new video in this series.

Not for the videos themselves, I enjoy them. It’s because of the inevitable release of bile the gaming community brings up every time. It’s revolting - I’ve stopped reading certain gaming sites solely because of the shit they spew forth whenever something is questioned - not attacked, just looked at critically.

I love gaming but am increasingly hesitant to identify as a gamer. I don’t want to be part of a community that acts like this when someone does nothing more than say “hey, maybe you can just think about this…”.

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As I commented, I agree with her premise, but I notice examples in each video where she is simplifying or overlooking facts to fit her narrative. I haven’t played all of the titles she mentions, but many of those I am familiar with have flawed analysis that serves no purpose but to pad the list of titles she can paint as problematic. Why should I assume she isn’t doing the same with the games I haven’t played? Watering down a pint of paint to cover an entire room is less useful than using the it to paint a coherent picture.

And yes, the Rogue Legacy bit annoys me because she specifically uses the word “all”, when playing the game for 10 minutes will reveal the discrepancy. I’m fairly sure Anita would be the first to agree to the importance of the words you choose to express yourself.

Anyways, I’m not trying to convince you that she is wrong, I’m just wishing she was dissecting her targets instead of trying to play a dozen whack-a-mole games at the same time. Catch you next video :wink:

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I was responding to someone saying that it was ad hominem to not want to listen to her because she shames gamers. I am agnostic on the issue of whether she actually has anything against gamers, I just wanted to defend the idea that it is not ad hominem to not listen to someone who you feel is shaming or insulting you.

Before watching this video, I hadn’t given any thought to the gender of Angry Birds. Well, that’s not strictly true; I’d actually probably assumed they were mostly female (other than the cardinal-type bird), since they were highly invested in protecting eggs from predation. Heck, one of them even laid eggs, so duh.

Also, as a fancy-man, I’ve really warmed to wearing pink shirts over the past few years. They add a dash of color to my wardrobe without washing out my pale, whitemaleprivileged flesh. They also make my blue eyes look really pretty.

My girlfriend grew up loving scarves, jewelery, and horses. And large industrial machinery.

Hmmm, I’m not really adding much here, am I.

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The point wasn’t to convince you you’re wrong about the specifics of your complaint. The point was how easy it is to take a slightly different point of view and dismiss everything as “cherry-picking” from the alternative view.

See, here you’re using your perception that the analysis is flawed to impute a motivation to Sarkeesian. Here are a few other possibilities to consider:

  1. Sarkeesian did not purposefully incorporate a flaw into her analysis to make a point – she legitimately made an error (as, I’m told, human beings sometimes do).
  2. The analysis is only flawed from your perspective because you’re looking at it at a different angle. Your previous post contained an example where you thought her analysis of “Psychonauts” was flawed because she didn’t include the caveat that other characters in the game (including male characters) are subjected to the same treatment. Here the problem is not so much that Sarkeesian’s analysis was flawed so much as she didn’t do the analysis you wanted her to do. But that’s not exactly a reasonable grounds for criticism.
  3. Sarkeesian’s analysis may sometimes be somewhat flawed but not in a way that actually detracts from the point she’s making. Perhaps Rogue Legacy is an example. Perhaps Sarkeesian is factually incorrect that every female character but if the proportion of female characters wearing bows is quite high then it seems to me her point is still just as valid but she has made a small factual error in getting the point across.

Ultimately if you go looking for problems with anything you’ll find them – “cherry-picking” is a criticism that could apply to literally any piece of commentary that uses examples. Including criticism of a piece of commentary that uses examples such as yours. If you agree with her thesis then you could always ask how critical is the disagreement you have with her example to her overall argument. I suspect in just about every case it will be something like “not very”.

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Do have you any evidence of that? Because she says nothing like that in this video. I thought she was actually very sensitive to (and inclusive of) the existence of multiple genders beyond just male and female, which is the opposite of what you’re saying about her.

Your whole post sounds like it’s a response to some ridiculous straw feminist in your head rather than a response to Sarkeesian’s video.

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If she’s anything like the other students of Gender Studies or Equality Studies that I know, then she probably does care about harmful or limiting representations of men in media.

But as an academic (and you have to remember that she studies this professionally – it isn’t just a hobby for her), you have to specialize in something, and media representations of women are what she specializes in.

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If she can talk, she’s already absorbed the gender coding from the world around her.

And that’s not even a PROBLEM. It’s just that your daughter isn’t just your son, but in pink and with a tiara. They’re different people. The “Ms. Male Character” is telling your daughter, every time she sees one, that the only thing that makes her any different from the boys is pink clothing and tiaras. It encourages her to limit her definition of what she is to “a girl.”

As her parent, you should want to protect her, to help her grow up in a world where she can be whatever she wants, to see women as not just men in pink and with tiaras. This video is part of that fight.

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That may be so, but it’s more than obvious she thrives on the divisiveness. Not only that, but she encourages her audience to disparage anyone who disagrees or tries to look damaging media representations of men. There’s a boat load of bias in her work which is why she gets as much disdain thrown in her direction. If she were a bit more scholarly and a little bit less divisive, if at least a tiny bit, she may not get as much thrown back at her - especially from people who look at the world with a wider lens.

You can learn more about things with context than without and it’s plain that Sarkeesian is either intentionally or unintentionally ignoring a plethora of context. In that limited view, of course the world is in an active role fully intent on oppressing women and only women instead of the fuller reality that stereotypes and tropes are lazy mechanisms for communication and progression (albeit not always positive) to capitalize on what’s already there in society’s consciousness. That includes stereotypes and tropes about women, men, races, religions, cultures, etc.

Sarkeesian is fighting a battle at the margins when she thinks she’s fighting a war. While the rest of the world is intent on women being in a better place and in a better position of power instead of positions of servitude, she’ll still be talking about video games.

And another reason I take issue with Sarkeesian’s feminist methodology is she is making no attempts, at all, to court the empathy of anyone other than women. Watching her videos, she’s speaking for and primarily to other women as if women need a reminder that their place in society still needs work and maintenance. What she, and other feminists, need to work on is courting a wider audience and limiting herself to video games, of all things, and ignoring (and even pretending it doesn’t exist) the tropes of males in video games isn’t helping.

There really are very few general rules in public speaking:

The first one is know your audience. If you don’t know your audience, you won’t know how to make them empathize with your message.

That leads into the second: speak their language. Do not speak in your own language if the audience will not understand a word you say. You don’t go before a French-speaking audience and speak Swahili. Likewise, you don’t go before an non-women’s studies audience and expect to be understood when you use lingo reserved for 2nd and 3rd year women’s studies (especially Internet feminist group lingo).

One of Sarkeesian’s intentions, other than to educate, is to inform a wider audience. If you want to widen your audience, beyond the above two rules, you also have to make sure to not offend the audience but you also have to give them reason to even begin listening to your message. Relying on simply the good nature in every human being alone isn’t enough. Why should anyone be listening to this person who they’ve never heard of? Give them reason to. Tug at them by making a video about the male tropes in video games and the media and how damaging they are to men and, coincidentally, the fight for women’s rights. If you want to court more men into feminism - a feminism that is supposedly about equality between the sexes and not just about women empowerment for the sake of empowerment, you’re going to have to bother to represent them as well.

And that goes back to the issue of context. Sarkeesian is not the person feminists want to get behind. She has decided to remain in a very, very limited scope of human studies. Context is everything and ignorance of another kind is still ignorance.

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She decided to use the extra money to expand the scope of the original project. It’s now going to be 12 videos instead of 5, and she’s going to develop a set of companion learning materials for schools.

I see no reason to doubt that she’ll do that. She’s been delivering so far.

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EDIT: I’m paring this way down. Sorry.

Dude, don’t put words in my mouth and then insult me… seriously, just stop.

What?

I just googled, and her KS goal was $6000; seems reasonable to cover the time, effort etc. of producing the videos, in fact it’s quite cheap!

I should probably recuse myself from these discussions, because I tend to enjoy the more casual games (the non-AAA games you don’t have to devote your life to.) However, I’ve seen several of the rebuttal videos, including thunderf00t, and…well…if you can look past the hateful bile, a lot of them have decent rebuttals. A real shame they can’t stop loathing women long enough to make a legit point.

I’m actually sort of shocked that he never had that happen, as he was pretty critical of video games as a whole. Being a public figure, though, of course he got death threats. For some reason mentally unstable people like to threaten famous people, even Internet famous. Maybe he deserved them for “Beyond the Valley of the Dolls” (not really.)

And again, I’m not attacking most of her message (nor do I feel I’m attacking anything) I mostly brought up misgivings about her possible motivations/intellectual honesty. But then, this is one of those subjects where the fans feel that if you speak about it in a negative way, you’re attacking it. Nah, those guys who sent rape and death threats were attacking her. I’m just (ugh) asking questions (I need a shower after stringing those four words together).

And honestly? If she’s really using that huge stack of cash to fund an entire series, and if she’s making people happy, then I suppose there’s no worries. It’s just…well, it’s just a shame we can’t discuss it without one side or another shrieking about how terribly hateful the other people are being.

…and I’m done. Promise.

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Here are two challenges:

  1. How games pass the Bechdel test? Remember, to pass it needs at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man

  2. How many games star a strong female protagonist as the sole player option?

Why? 1) I’ve played hundreds of video games and I can maybe count just a few that pass either on a single hand. 2) If you happen to know about more of these games, I will gladly play them.

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I actually think that most of what she’s saying is fairly mainstream and uncontroversial. It’s pretty much “Basic Feminism for newcomers”. This isn’t radical or extremist stuff.

Fine by me. I happen to think that media representation is important. It has a huge effect on how people think, and American popular media is especially important because it gets exported around the world.

There are countries where men don’t think women can drive. I’d love for those men to see movies with fewer Damsels in Distress and a fuck-ton more soldiers like Femshep.

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You’re talking about whether Sarkeesian can be trusted to be acting in good faith, based on the thinnest of evidence, and then bring up her critics and tell us to overlook the very same sorts of things in them? I have to say, that paints you as being pretty unfair to her.

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I dunno, that sounds pretty inoperable to me. Doubly so, even, since I didn’t realise that we had non-functioning glands to go with the purely decorative nipple.

Hens would be preferable to Chicks, yes.

Women out number men dammit! Why aren’t we the default, there’s more of us!

what about the Han Chinese they outnumber all others why aren’t they considered the default. they are 54 percent male. see how “silly” that would be?

going to where anita most likely “researched” her material I found a possible answer.
Most Writers Are Male

Jesus H christ did I read that page right? it seems to atleast in part blame it on the jews

I am not sure if I would call it “non-functional” since men can also get breast cancer.

Also, a quick search on this idea that “we all begin life as female” brought up the Wolffian duct which develops into part of the reproductive system for men while it regresses and leaves behind remnants for females: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesonephric_duct I am not sure how that supports the idea that we all begin life as females.

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I’m mystified about why her material is so offensive to some male gamers.

Don’t gender this males who happen to play video games aren’t alone in this. Lady let’s players are pissed and with good reason.

Anita’s Sources

It has recently come to my attention that, where it can be checked (cutscenes are usually the same everywhere after all and popular games have a million Let’s Plays to hide in), a substantial amount of Feminist Frequency’s video game footage isn’t actually stuff she recorded herself. She’s already just pretty much reading Tvtropes pages and Wikipedia summaries, but the game footage doesn’t even come from her own camp and she doesn’t cite her resources?

There’s of course a disclaimer at the end of her video to declare all the footage as fair use, but it’s still bad form to hide the fact that a lot of her footage is ripped straight from YouTube in, as MovieBob calls it, an “academic presentation”, especially with the money she raised for the project and the amount of time it took to even release her first video.

If we can get cancer there, then that moves a male nipple from ‘non-functional’ to active detriment, I’d say.

As to the other thing, the whole ‘starting out as female’ meme is really only based on lack of external genitalia, as far as I can tell. A foetus isn’t really sexed until the reproductive organs begin to develop and they go one way or the other.

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