Me either.
Unless you count Buddhists as atheists I think you’re unlikely to meet any, too. But yeah, I don’t know every atheist, obviously.
Do we need a stronger word than atheist to make it clear that it isn’t just the god bit we think is ludicrous? Amumbojumboist? Awooist?
Agree entirely. In this case, the journey was not only better than the conclusion, it is the only reason to watch.
The seventh episode was a routine police procedural, the final a mix of that with a bad horror movie. The characters doing things no sensible person would do. Following a killer into his lair. Experienced cops not backing off and getting help.
It remained good TV, but nothing approaching the unique greatness of first six episodes. The larger conspiracy is left unaddressed. The reverend’s involvement seemed provable, but that is unaddressed as well.
I’ll hold off watching next year’s until the full season has run and the reviews are in. This payoff was just too underwhelming.
I think that many people, without realizing it, wanted some kind of clever trickery at the end that wrapped it all up in some kind of cool, well-plotted way. But this really was about the personal voyage of two damaged men who somehow found their redemption at the end. Lesser actors, writers, and directors could never have pulled this off. There were clues throughout the show that this would never end in some neat detective wrap-up. Nothing ever ends. There is no “closure.” Life is a flat circle. It takes bad men to keep other bad men from the door. We were all looking for crazy hidden clues and there really were none – it was right in front of us all the time. Rust Cohle looking to the stars to “tell stories” speaks to the very earliest religions when man would look to the skies for answers. He felt strong contempt for organized religion (The Christian revival meetings and Carcossa both represent extremes of that) but found his own spirituality at the end, looking at the stars and writing his own stories. Both characters were completely “redeemed” at the end and, bruised as they were, we knew they’d be okay and we could let them go.
And the show’s creator doesn’t agree. To him, the existential debate about the finiteness of life, versus the idea of some meaning beyond that, is the struggle Rust is going through, and finds some degree of resolution in. It has nothing to do with you, and the fact that you’ve made up your mind, because the show is not about you. Many of us do struggle with this “internal debate,” nothing versus something, meaning versus meaninglessness, light versus dark. I dare say it’s by far and away a greater number of us, than self-described atheists.
But I will also throw at you the idea that there are absolutely areas of philosophy and even theoretical physics that allow for the possibility of consciousness existing as something that is not purely generated by the brain. Take a look at panpsychism. I would submit it’s absolutely possibly to have a non-religious underpinning to the idea that consciousness is possible after physical death, and absolutely could adhere to scientific principles, and that these do not HAVE to be mutually exclusive, even if for now, it’s simply a hypothesis. Just because your personal opinion does not allow for this, doesn’t mean the rest of us have to fit into the small little boxes you’ve very explicitly defined for your self.
I like your ideas, but struggle between light and dark, if taken more broadly, is also at the heart of MOST belief systems that I’ve ever come across, Western and beyond. One might as well substitute being/non-being.
As far as the entire sequence, it seemed clear to me that this was Rust’s initiation process. It was much like an initiation ritual in some occult order, and he did have to face some higher-order reality at the end of it, but that interestingly, it was a fundamentally positive experience, and not one of “darkness” entirely. Or rather, that the darkness he felt when he was “dead” was also accompanied by the “light” of the love he experienced for/by his daughter and father. I would argue, a fundamentally non-dualistic type of experience of true illumination.
Care to elaborate on that? Specifically the theoretical physics part?
I would also submit that it’s possible for an atheist to answer “yes” to the question of whether god exists, because it’s such a loaded word, and it’s possible to have a conception of something that for all intents and purposes is “god” but is scientifically true at its core, and very very different than what “god” means to most religious folk. Again, look at panpsychism and hylozoism as possible philosophical underpinnings to this line of thought.
For example, I happen to intuitively feel that consciousness may be “tuned into” by our brains, which act as more of an antenna or lens for consciousness, versus the idea that the brain generates consciousness. I refer to consciousness here as something other than our egos and personalities as we understand them. If this “consciousness field” exists, it’s not mystical, it is physical and real, and may in fact someday be verified by science, which I would love to see. I don’t know for sure that this is true, and certainly don’t claim to take it completely on faith, but intuitively it seems like a possibility, one that both jives with some ideas found in religion and philosophy, but on there other hand potentially compatible with physics and psychology. I’m definitely an atheist in that I do not follow mainstream religions’ definition of god and afterlife, but I am open to the possibility that something exists outside of our current understanding. I’d say that this actually makes me a scientist of a Fortean leaning, in that it has not been disproven by science at this point, and as such I keep it open as a possibility.
It’s far too facile and reductionist to claim that Rust “converts”, is “cured of atheism”, or any such simplicity.
Return to the first car conversation in Episode 1 after they discover Dora Lange. When Rust reveals his philosophy to Marty, Marty asks: “So how do you get out of bed everyday?”
Rust answers: “I tell myself I bear witness, but, in reality, I know its my own programming and that I lack the constitution to commit suicide.” He’s perfectly aware that however rational he is, however certain he is that that rationality is correct, that he himself is also irrational because he himself is human. That he is all the more irrational by trying to be supremely rational; both going on living and committing suicide are irrational.
I’m sure that if Marty wanted to be a dick, he could have fired back with Rust’s own words and explained to him that, “Rust, you are an accretion of your own senses and consciousness trying to seek meaning in your own life. You weren’t rejoined with your father and daughter” and Rust would likely be forced to agree but would probably hold on to the truth of his own feelings. But Marty isn’t Rust, Marty’s nature is not to distrust the lies we tell to ourselves to make life bearable, and they are in the afterglow of understanding that their friendship is true and something worthwhile.
That’s the point. We are irrational beings. We need to create our own fantasies to rationalize and come to grips with our own reality. Understanding that or coming to that conclusion is not anything new to Rust, but in actually experiencing it, he is coming to grips with life and finally living it. Allowing him to move on and to at least hold on to his friendship and some sense of optimism.
I’ll just add, I very much lean toward something that sort of resembles the “simulated reality” view of things, and as such, I definitely believe this could be one reason why the “thing that we are” can exist beyond “physical death,” because this plane is a simulation anyway, and some or all of us exist outside of this simulation, in addition to projecting our consciousness (or one aspect of it) into the simulation. I certainly would not argue that anyone has to believe me, and I’m definitely not trying to convert anyone to this belief, but there absolutely ARE very smart people who are likely self-described atheists who are open to the “simulated reality” view. To be more specific, I think we exist in a Matryoshkaverse.
Rust proved that human nature is not hopeless through his own actions (Better to light one candle yadda yadda yadda). Sure it’s cliche to win back your soul through a heroic selfless act. But look how many people jump to fight in a pointless war or follow absurd conspiracy theories, just so they can feel they are on the side of good - it’s a powerful need.
I don’t know. Whenever I see the terms “Roger Penrose” and “reality” close together, I get cautious. The man is mainly a mathematician, interested in the areas where geometry and physics meet. He seems more concerned with ideas than facts. Which is fine – and definitely both interesting and entertaining – but not really mainstream physics (the Wikipedia article says as much specifically about Orch-OR).
I’m not dismissing the possibility, mind you. But as an appeal to authority, saying that theoretical physics allows for consciousness being generated outside the brain doesn’t hold much water. Because mainstream theoretical physics has nothing much to say about that.
Oh man, I’ve put so much effort into this. Should’ve just said ‘Huh’ and moved on. 
Listen, if you were to run current “mainstream” theoretical physics by a physicist of 100 years ago, at the dawn of the age of quantum understanding, you’d blow their mind. I fully expect the same to be true 100 years from now, when looking back at right now. It is from that perspective I find myself open to a realm of possibilities. And Penrose is not the only person who is open to the types of interpretations I was referencing. The fact that he’s a mathematician more than theoretical physicist I’d argue is growing increasingly more semantic, in that many physicists seem to think that mathematics is indeed what’s at the “core” of the universe.
And with that, 'nuff said.
Really? It was really one of the most creative and interesting tellings of an investigation to find a serial killer and the lamers can’t help but be underwhelmed because they find a serial killer at the end? They can’t all be a stupid Lost/Steven king ending where the yellow king is a time shifting purgatory island, giant spider, or time eating tadpole.
It s very interesting to read the almost unvaried responses. I am stunned by those who claim definite understanding of our existence and in turn, complete understanding of human reality after death. I enjoyed, rather, I watched the show with anticipation. I was struck by the exposure of our individual humanity even under the most perverse of situations. Life, lived fully, is something that is rarely defined scientific theories or mathematical computations. Regardless of whether or not you believe in a “God” or not does not really effect the experience of simply living. I think those that were ‘underwhelmed’ by the conclusion, may in fact may not have lived enough life to understand the intricate nature of how most of endure and survive this thing called life!
You know I’m sure I read the “look at the stars, all used to be dark but now there’s light everywhere” quote before in a scifi story but for the life of me I can’t remember the name.
Edit: I guess it was Allan Moore’s “Top ten”; It’s been ages since I read that.
I was half expecting the Defiant to come flying out of that hallucination.
Worthwhile essay from philosopher Alan Watts here for interpreting/understanding the crux of the show, in my opinion (whether intended or not). Right off-the-bat, it distills the exact essence of Childress’s cryptic taunts and Cohle’s final revelation:
Cosmic Drama by Alan Watts
Has a bit of this flavor to it:
*“All the world’s a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts…” - *Shakespeare
And:
“But now a great thing in the street
Seems any human nod,
Where shift in strange democracy
The million masks of God.” - GK Chesterton
Check out that essay above all (it’s a long enough read, as is), but here’s some additional relevant material from Watts worth checking out:
The Million Masks Of God (30-minute lecture…even gets into time as a circle)
Black and White (5-minute clip…try to ignore the crappy background music)
The Game of Black-and-White (long-read)
I’ve also been surprised by the lack of discussion around his “hallucination”. Was it a hallucination or was he breaking through to see what Childress was working on. All his sacrifices and pain worship to break through to “the infernal plain”.
You could take the whole show as a simple cop story, or you could watch it like X-Files where maybe what you’re seeing isn’t just psychosis but piercing the world of the ancients in a Lovecraftian tale. There’s clearly more to Childress than we’re going to get. “Take off your mask!”
I also had a sort of “Angels In America” feel to it.
