Turkish high school students will no longer be taught "controversial" evolutionary theory

[anon73430903]

@One_Brown_Mouse

The Fuck? Turkey used to be significantly more progressive than this. The people still are.

Erdogan happened.

[DukeTrout]

@shwonline

If evolution is true, why do we have both Erdogan and pond scum?

They fill slightly different ecological niches. Also, pond scum wouldn’t lower itself to reproduce with Erdogan. So they are separate species.

[8080256256]

Turkey is more like Massachusetts of the Middle East. Compare to Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Yemen…

[spejic]

@Mister44

There is nothing in religious texts that preclude the acceptance of Evolution. Unless one wants to have a very rigid interpretation of Genesis, which is from prophetic visions passed down orally before finally written down.

This isn’t about “religion”, it’s about authoritarianism. The amount of critical thinking, of any kind, in the population must be controlled.

[petzl]

@spejic

This isn’t about “religion”, it’s about authoritarianism. The amount of critical thinking, of any kind, in the population must be controlled.

Pretty sure there’s a Venn diagram somewhere for this. But you just can’t say this isn’t about religion.

Evolution directly contradicts a literal interpretation of the Bible or the Quran. That is the main reason it must be suppressed by fundamentalist regimes. Not because “learning subject X engages you in critical thinking.”

[spejic]

@petzl

Evolution directly contradicts a literal interpretation of the Bible or the Quran. That is the main reason it must be suppressed by fundamentalist regimes. Not because “learning subject X engages you in critical thinking.”

Fundamentalist regimes exist to further the cause of the leader, nothing more. I don’t believe Erdogon or the individuals he is currying favor from are in any sense pious. They are not doing this to gain the admiration of their god. It is a means to power.

[R.Birks]

Evolutionarily, I think Erdogan is classified as a slime mold.

[8080256256]

@Mister44

There is nothing in religious texts that preclude the acceptance of Evolution.

That would be a pretty sweeping statement even from a doctor of comparative theology. Aside from literalist interpretations, evolution implicitly negates a number of key doctrines (and that’s just the Christian ones).

For starters, it robs human kind of any special position in time and space. There were billions of years and millions of species before us and there will be billions of years after us. The universe and the biosphere will outlive us. That it was a specific branch of bipedal primates that developed self-reflexive thinking first (well…probably) is a complete accident - so much for being created in God’s image. Ditto the ever mutating nature of our biological coding - if it keeps changing, it can hardly be perfect or final in any sense.

If you believe (as even Catholics do) that the incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ was an absolutely singular cosmic event, the otherwise quite peripheral cosmic significance of homo sapiens becomes a real problem.

[anon73430903]

@spejic

I don’t believe Erdogon or the individuals he is currying favor from are in any sense pious.

Maybe, but he has always been a member of political parties who were were against the secular Kemalism that dominated Turkish politics until 2001.

National Salvation Party

Welfare Party

Virtue Party

Not that Kemalism was that great, but compared to Erdogan it would be an improvement.

[white_noise]

[citation needed]

[Mister44]

@8080256256

That would be a pretty sweeping statement even from a doctor of comparative theology.

Well, ok, you got me there. I should have said The Bible.

@8080256256

For starters, it robs human kind of any special position in time and space…That it was a specific branch of bipedal primates that developed self-reflexive thinking first (well…probably) is a complete accident - so much for being created in God’s image.

Eh - yes and no. Here is the thing. If you don’t believe in God, then yes, it’s all just random chance. But, if you do believe in God you are still special and it isn’t just random chance. An omnipotent being could have just hit “play” on the Universe 14+ Billion years ago, knowing that eventually the events he/she set up and the laws they put in place, would lead to this moment now. Or he/she could be actively pulling strings to nudge us along - you will never know to what extent direct manipulation would have been required because you can’t measure God. Personally, I think it is a rather awe inspiring idea that we could come to be only after early stars exploded, spreading their heavy elements through out the cosmos. That so much pre-work was done for us to finally exist.

And then something Science will most likely never take from believers is the idea of the soul, which is really what makes us special compared to all other life on earth.

So anyone who thinks evolution makes us less special I think should give it more thought from a different angle.

@8080256256

if it keeps changing, it can hardly be perfect or final in any sense.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think our human form was supposed to be perfect or final in any sense. And it was built in with ton of flaws.

[anon63581570]

I believe in God and Christ’s sacrifice. However, I also am a firm believer in Science. Why? Science has proven itself as a methodology for figuring out the universe.

To paraphrase a quote I have always associate with Gallilio: The Bible tells you how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

[Boundegar]

*a highly respected professor told me this story about 20 years ago.

[8080256256]

I’m not claiming evolution invalidates faith as such. But doesn’t fit well with the scripture, certainly as it is traditionally understood.

@Mister44

I could be wrong, but I don’t think our human form was supposed to be perfect or final in any sense.

Perhaps not perfect, but man is supposed to be in some sense the telos of creation. If our DNA keeps changing and drifting to new forms of being, this goes out the window.

@Mister44

And then something Science will most likely never take from believers is the idea of the soul, which is really what makes us special compared to all other life on earth.

It would be quite difficult to encounter intelligent, communicating aliens (more or less predicted by evolutionary theory in combination with other related findings) and credibly claim they have no soul because they are not human. Particularly since humans themselves can’t be biologically pinned down.

[One_Brown_Mouse]

I did not see any redefining jihad as “loving a nation”. at your offered link. Huh.

OHHHHHH

the very text at your link says “as part of Islam in the context of “loving a nation”.”

I’m sure you took the nuance off of it in a good faith effort to enhance clarity, and not as a dishonest attempt to portray someone else as the extremist.

[hint: it could be you who has been radicalized, just sayin, that’s sort of a tell right there]

[ugh]

I never equated the redefinition of jihad as “loving a nation” with extremism. I was simply making a concise statement based on the article. If you want full nuance, here’s the context, which you also failed to provide:

One book titled Life of Muhammad the Prophet has been singled out for criticism, both for alleged sexism and its explanation of jihad.

Jihad is defined as “religious war” by the dictionary of the Institute of Turkish Language. But education ministry officials say the concept of jihad has been exploited by jihadist groups such as so-called Islamic State (IS).

The education minister says the concept should be introduced as part of Islam in the context of “loving a nation”.

“Jihad is an element in our religion. Our duty is to teach every concept deservedly and correct things that are wrongly perceived,” he says.

Note how it’s written: “Jihad is defined as…But education ministry officials say…” Isn’t the article saying the definition in the textbook is different than in the Turkish dictionary? Isn’t that “redefinition”?

Again, I never made a value judgement about that particular reform. I just made a simple statement. Maybe it was too simple; I did not intend to mislead anyone.

I think it was unnecessary for you to assume the worst and attack me personally. I have not been radicalized into harboring anti-Muslim sentiments; I have a great deal of love for people who follow the Islamic faith (and a great deal of love for people who don’t, also). I resent that you’ve accused me of being hateful.

I see that you joined the BBS a little over three months ago, so maybe you’re still trying to find the best tone for your posts here, but if your intent is to spread negativity, there are plenty of other venues on the Internet better suited for that. I don’t see how your unfriendliness enriches the conversation here.

[knoxblox]

This makes me sad. Back in the olden days, Kansas was often considered a progressive state.

[TheGreatParis]

@knoxblox

Back in the olden days, Kansas was often considered a progressive state.

As could be said about Turkey.

[L0ki]

The Book of Ezekiel | My Jewish Learning

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tractate-hagiga-chapter-2

Those do you?

It’s apparently Leviticus it contradicts. And there’s also concern about the description of God’s chariot (bit too mystic and might send the unlearned off down wrong paths apparently).

Thank you for asking for the citation by the way, I wouldn’t have bothered to look it up otherwise and I found it quite interesting.